--- In [email protected], TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In [email protected], akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > This captures a lot of what real world modern strip clubs are > > about. Its so funny to hear abstractions about how bad clubs > > are -- that are based on imagination of what clubsare, or dramatic > > (mis)representations, and/or 25 year old journal articles. > > Or, as was actually done here, from TV and movies. > That's the closest that a lot of people have ever > gotten to one of these clubs.
> Some of them *are* sleazy, and exploitative. My observation is that there is a rapid "gentrification" or "upscaling" of many club. I am not sure of your Detroit period, but lets say its 1990ish, then I would suggest the spectrum of clubs have generally and substantially raised themselves up a couple of notches since then. Top upscale clubs are indistinguishable from quite upscale bars and restaurants -- and night clubs. Medium range clubs are are upscale wannabes and are remodeling and adding a lot of the trappings and polish of the upscale clubs. And the low level clubs are becoming more like mid to upper clubs of yesteryear. All this is based on pretty small samples -- and may not apply to all low population rural clubs -- which are basically very basic blue-collar bars. "Semantics" and core assumptions are such a key issue in this discussion as in most. The obvious differences in reality-based, fact-based views vs imagination/media based views of "strip club" is a wonderful illustration on how doomed discussions often are when various parties come to the table with radically different connotations in their heads for core words, like "strip club", "explotation", and "objectification". For me, "strip club" means for the most part, an upscale club, indistinguishable from an upscale bar / nightclub, where the dancers are quite in control, have choice,are well paid, and demand - and are given -- great respect and courtesy. For the most part they are athletically strong, trained dancers, who wear a variety of interesting wardrobes/ costumes in their routines. And the focus is not on watching dancers, much less fixation on them. Its about conversation with those in ones group, and/or with the dancers and waitresses. The dancing, in various stages, is often some ways away and is sort of an entertainment backdrop to conversation. The view, given the somewhat the somewhat subdued lighting is less erotic than a visit to any beach. For Vaj, his view appears not-empirically based, or if it is, I am guessing its 20-30 years old. Which means that it has little to do with modern upscale club reality. And he appears highly influenced by media, fictional representations of clubs, like Bada Bing. While there may be a few Bada Bings in low population areas, or maybe in low rent areas of industrial towns, its a very old skewl, retro image. A dying breed. I am guessing judy's view is imagination based also, but I invite her to explicitly dewscribe what she thinks a club looks like and what happens inside. The difference in our internal connotations to the term, is perhaps analogous to people using "TV" in a discussion and where I think "High definition, surround sound, large flat screen, with a wide spectrum of offerings -- some of which are quite high grade, intelligent productions". Others might think "black and white, fuzzy reception, 3 channel wasteland programming." I actualy have that "discussion" with a cousin every christmas. She means the latter, I mean the former, and she can't undertand why I think some TV is pretty good. Same with the terms "explotation" and "objectification". I have given quite detailed explanations of what these terms mean to me in this context and why I believe they do not generally apply to modern strip club. No on has countered with other definitions and indicated why such clubs are exploitive or create objectification. These terms are used, in my view, as "loaded" conversation stoppers. Once you are accused of "objectifying" or "exploiting" women -- its all over. Its the neutron bomb of discussions. Once accused of such, one is supposed to crumple and limp away, repenting for ones sins. Sorry, I am not going to be guilt-tripped by loaded words that the users don't define or argue as to their applicability. Calling a firm ripe apple a worm-infested hell hole of decay and vermin doesn't actually make it so. So, as in all discussions, first clarifying underlying assumptions and definitions is critical to meaningful discussion. I wish all would undertake such simple, conversation promoting step ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
