--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> [akasha_108 wrote:]
> > in themselves. Specifically Judy -- I sense we may share some
> > commonality here, i see similar dynamics in you that I have been
> > dealing with in myself. While I am sure your mother was a wonderful
> > person, was she similar to my mother in the "always correcting to
> > her standards" mode?"

> Not at all.  Nor my father, either.

I'm sorry, my writing structure was probably not clear. I was ONLY
giving a hypothetical example of how Cliff could bring up the topic of
parential modeling IF he was pursuing true inquiry and not personal
slights. I was not personally asking you about your parents. That was
Cliffs model, not mine. (Though actually I see some remains of
parental modeling in myself -- I may post on that later.)
(And by inquiry, I am referring to the broad topic of parental
modeling, not an inquiry into Judy Steins past and family.)

> <snip>
> > > Once again I'll point out the very interesting
> > > phenomenon here that Barry's verbal abuse of me
> > > is at least as bad as mine of him
> > 
> > Well. "faint praise" for yourself. Two wrongs don't make a right,
> > and all.
> Didn't say they did.  I'm talking about double
> standards.

I am still missing the point. Are you trying to establish that woman
can be as rude and abusive as men? 

> > --not to mention
> > > that he lies and I don't--yet for some reason, I
> > > get all the flak.
> > Everyone can make up their own mind if they think Barry lies.
> Well, no, in most cases they have no way of
> knowing unless it's pointed out to them.

Well, that implies that you believe you are among the few, perhaps the
only one, who can surmise if Barry is lying.  It implies a sense of
superiority. And perhaps a sense of compassionate mission that you
feel the need to help those less insightful than you to show them the
light. It looks kind of parallel to the last point in this post.

I differ with your apparent view. I think many are smart enough to
figure out, at least as well as you, if someone is lying, stretching
the truth, exaggeratng to make a point, or simply misinformed. 

And this can be aided by pointing out other sources of data / fact on
a case by case basis. If Barry or anyone is seen to be making untrue
or misleading statements repeatedly, people will draw their won
conclusions. No need to label Barry. 

And what if Barry is lying. What is the impact? Is Barry such an 
important and powerful opinion setter here that if he lied, a lot of
people would make decisions based on his statements?  Barry says a lot
of stuff, as to many people. I don't base my life, or take
consequntial actions based on much of what anyone says here.

> > > I'm beginning to wonder whether there might be
> > > some connection between this phenomenon and the
> > > defense here of strip clubs.
> > 
> > Which would be?
> I don't conform to the expected pattern of
> female behavior, 

How so? I worked in an aggressive corporate environment for many years
and I worked with a lot of strong women. I don't have expectations for
female behavior as different from male behavior. In my experience,
there are both males and females across the full spectrum of human
virtues and foilbles. 

so I'm taken to task for it
> (not in those terms, obviously, but I think
> that may be what's behind it).

Just you? What about Irmeli, Ingrade (sp), IM2smart, Vashi, Sal etc.
Do you feel that these and other women posters are taken to task for
being women who transcend traditional  female stereotypes? How do you
other women feel about this? Do you feel that you are taken to task? 

> If Barry were constantly tussling with a guy,
> with the same levels of "abuse" on both sides,
> do you think folks would tend to come down on
> the guy and leave Barry strictly alone?

I think Barry gets critiques (both deserved and undeserved, IMO).
Remember when an Anon was on him -- and barry exclaimed that the anon
was "out of control"?  i have taken Barry to task for what I see a
distortions and exagerations -- on some data issues and for example,
his retelling of the Blockbuster / Enron partnership. But I try to
point out that I have other facts. Not a personal slam on Barry
himself. I don't see the value in that. 

As I think some ciriques aimed at you are sometimes on target,
othertimes not. I started this post by calling Cliff for what I
thought was an inappropriate "attack. On your mother. 

What I don't see is that critiques aimed at you are in any way veiled
attacks on your being a woman, or being a woman who transcends old
school stereotypes. (I think most woman on this lsit have broken such

And I think all personal attacks on anyone are inappropriate. 
Challenge the fats, challenge the logic. But no one should call the
poster an asshole just because their facts, logic or conclusions are
different than their own.  

> With strip clubs, I think a lot of you gents
> don't see anything wrong with them because they
> conform to expected patterns of female and male
> behavior.  You see them within that context.

Quite off base. Personally, I see things wrong with strip clubs. I
just don't happen to see exploitation and objectification. And I dont
have different expected patterns of female and male behavior. I expect
both genders to act humanly, compassionately, intelligently, humorously.  

> > > (And by the way, the verbal abuse I and others
> > > regularly get from Cliff makes it *exceptionally*
> > > curious that he would feel he's in a position to
> > > criticize *anybody* else.)
> > 
> > Agreed. Probably no one is in a position to criticize others. We are
> > all mature adults (cough, cough) and profess to be spiritually and
> > compasionally oriented (cough, cough). So why not express such. If 
> > you (the universal you, I am not focussing on one person) see a 
> > weakness in a person, why rub it in?  If you are motivated to do 
> > something, instead of just accepting it (not an unwise course), 
> > then why not try to help the person.

> I invite you to try that with Barry.  

I have. It must be so skillful subtle that you have not noticed. :)

> He's quite
> likely (especially since I mentioned it) to graciously
> thank you for your helpful advice.  But then watch
> what follows and see if the behavior changes any.

Well, my life and its happiness are not dependent on changing anyone,
especially Barry.

> Also possible, if he's feeling worse than usual
> about himself one day, that he'd find a way to put
> you down for trying to be helpful.

Thats my karma. So be it. Why is it a concern of yours if he is an ass
to me?
> But the only times he behaves authentically is when
> he's so furious that he's out of control.  

Ok. Thats your observation. 

> You've
> seen that a couple times here now, but it's been
> far worse at times over on alt.m.t.

To be honest, I am not so concerned or interested in what has happend
on AMT. Or if Barry has committed 10,000 sins to date. I am only
concerned of how Barry acts in the present in ways that affect me. If
I find, via my own devices, that he is a lying weasal, I will respond
to that in my way. Its really not a matter for you to be concerned
with. Really.
>  Hopefully in subtle, 
> > supportive ways and not "its clear you are fucked up in this area, 
> > and I, not being fuck up, and being rather superlative in most 
> > areas, am here to publicly show my extensive compassion, so here
is what you should do."
> <snicker>  That's Barry's line, just for the record.
> It sure isn't mine.  (Yes, I know you said you weren't
> referring to anyone in particular, but as a case in
> point.)

Well, as discussed above, you appear to feel that you are uniquely
qualified (aka superior) to discern if and when Barry is lying, and
you seem to want and/or need to help all of us not as insightful as
you, by telling us how we should view and react to Barry.

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