My personal take jr. is that those who insist actions have no causality, is that it gives them a free pass for screwing up their life, and then claiming, "But, I couldn't have known!!".
Curtis is a fairly unsuccessful street performer, and Barry has no skills or money, or relationships. Ever wonder why these two losers denigrate God, and enlightenment? Because they are the *losers* of the world. They cannot accept that they have failed, that they deliberately made big mistakes, and are now responsible for their past actions. Better to blame it all on a random and chaotic universe. Shrugging their shoulders, and drooling, they ask each other, "Who knew?..." Of course they have no faith, or belief. in the traditions and systems of the world - They have failed, massively, and in their bitterness, only see a world inhabited by chumps and losers, like themselves. They are here, simply to convince the rest of us, of this twisted and negative world view of theirs. Doing a damned good job, too, poor bastards. "The world is as you are, live unbounded awareness" - Maharishi. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote : Xeno, Are you saying that the human mind would not be able to fathom the meaning of "begins to exist"? If that is so, how is it possible for you to begin and end a project at work or at home? But we know that NASA has been able to send the Curiosity rover to Mars which is a very high technological feat. So, it appears that humans know can understand the meaning of "begins to exist". If not, NASA would not have been able to send the rover to Mars. I believe you're avoiding the question by claiming that you don't know what statement 1 of the KCA means. In other words, you're being disingenuous. Or, that you're pulling a Curtis on us. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote : x exists x does not exist I do not know what the phrase 'begins to exist' means, especially in regard to the universe as a whole. If x were an auto-mobile, perhaps one could say that when it was partially assembled, it began to exist, but all the components of that were manufactured prior to that and merely gathered together with welds, bolts, and glue. And those parts had precursors, ad infinitum (almost) to the beginning of the universe, before which we have no knowledge, and in fact we have only induction as to regard the early universe. And induction is logically invalid. The link I gave in the previous post did do some analysis why the Kalam argument is flawed, apparently you did not read it. Here it is again: Cosmological Kalamity http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html Cosmological Kalamity http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html Home » Library » Modern » Dan Barker » Cosmological Kalamity Dan Barker "Daddy, if God made everything, who made God?" my daughter Kristi asked me, when she was five years old. View on infidels.org http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html Preview by Yahoo I do not know how the universe began. I do not know what 'begins to exist' means in this context, can you fill in some detail? If this were science, all I would have to do is wait for your demonstration of the truth of the argument, but as it seems no one knows, I doubt this would be forthcoming. As Curtis pointed out, proving a negative is impossible. It is a time waster. In science one simply ignores those who do not show up with evidence for their claims and thus science ('to know' is the meaning of the word) only works with people who actively produce results. For all I know the Kalam argument might be accidentally true, but essentially I just find it unconvincing. If god is un-caused, then god did not begin to exist, and if god did not begin to exist, he cannot exist. The word everything would seem to include what is called god, other wise, the first sentence includes a false concept. We would have not 'everything that begins to exist has a cause', and then we would have a number of possible things that were un-caused. For example, Zeus, the king of the gods, a step higher in divinity than the other gods, of which perhaps your god is one of those lesser ones. I can say on the basis of experience, that the universe was re-created this morning when I woke up. It was recreated again this morning and this evening when I came out of meditation after a timeless spell (I am not saying what sort of meditation was happening or not). I am un-caused, and therefore I must not be beginning to exist, and therefore I am not the universe, but seeing the universe seemed to emerge from what I am, I must be a creator of some sort. So if this happens with me, what am I? I must be more than a human form and mind, being able to contain all this. Since in my own estimation, I seem to have created the universe, where does that leave your argument? If the universe has a cause, how do you determine what that cause is or is not? Simply stating that the universe has a cause does not reveal the nature of the cause. It could be a quantum fluctuation in a multi-verse continuum. With multi-verses, maybe some have gods, and some do not. Maybe some are created by farts in a hyper-cosmic digestive system. You have also not mentioned the argument that the universe has no cause. Suppose we say, that in spite of all appearances, the universe has no cause at all. It was a spontaneous event that had no priors; that would mean that all the stuff in the universe ultimately had no cause either, the stuff within would have prior events but ultimately could not be traced back to a primal cause. Accidental existence. Perhaps we are all part of an unwanted pregnancy. Curtis is actually much better at this kind of reasoning than I am. I think he just wanted you to provide a positive example of the stipulation you made, something he could work with. A philosopher needs an argument, and needs to be able to state the other person's position accurately so they can look for a weakness in definition of terms and logic. You need to provide that. Otherwise you are not worth his time. He might as well waste his time with a Bible-thumping preacher from Hicksville. His time would be better spent teaching kids critical thinking. I can tell you when I was young in school, this is a skill that was not taught. America is a nation of idiots and climbing out of that pit of un-reason is no easy task. To be fair, had I ever remained in Greece, I doubt I would have fared better, though there are more opportunities for causes way back at the beginning of our place in the scheme of things: Greek gods prepare for comeback http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/05/greece http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/05/greece Greek gods prepare for comeback http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/05/greece It has taken almost 2,000 years, but those who worship the 12 gods of ancient Greece have finally triumphed. An Athens court has ordered that the adulation of... View on www.theguardian.com http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/05/greece Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote : Xeno, I have asked Curtis about his support or evidence for disagreeing with the statements in the Kalam Cosmological Argument. But he just gave me a lot of song and dance about his opinions without providing the evidence for his arguments. Can you give us a solid argument with evidence and support why the statements in the KCA have a flaw? Let's take the KCA which states: Everything that begins to exist has a cause; The universe began to exist; Therefore: The universe has a cause. Do you agree with statement 1 or not? If not, please give us your reasons for disagreeing.
