It is true that one can only surmise about what one doesn't have direct experience of. I am not questioning the TM technique, transcending, or CC as a state of being. I was questioning whether innate qualities in a human being (gunas) can be dispelled.
I was primarily curious as to your definitive statement that attaining CC frees one from one's karma...in *this* lifetime. That isn't something I believe we can know and so I wanted to better understand why you wrote this. You haven't yet addressed it, however, and I'm fine with leaving the conversation where it lies. P.S. I have known one person who believes that they have addressed all their karma in this lifetime and will not have to suffer through another incarnation. I remain skeptical of all such claims. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote : Emily, The simplest way for me to describe the technique is that all TMers can experience transcendental consciousness or bliss consciousness, although the experience is only temporary. Other meditators call it "samadhi", which is the generic term to describe this level of consciousness. TM studies have quantified this state in terms of brain wave data. The meditator can have replicable and repeated experience of this TC which is described by MMY in his commentarty to the Gita and the "Science of Being and the Art of Living." It's not difficult to imagine what cosmic consciousness would be like--which is permanent bliss consciousness during the waking, dreaming and deep sleep states The facts that you copied in Wikipedia are correct. But they lack the first hand experience of "transcending" during the TM practice. As you get familiar with transcending you can read MMY's commentary to the Gita to compare your experience with what MMY was describing. The only way for you to understand MMY's commentarty is to experience the process of transcending which will eventually give you the knowledge of what cosmic consciousness or the higher states of consciousness would be like. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emily.mae50@...> wrote : John, you write with a lot of clarity and responded to the "bondage" associated with being influenced by Gunas, as interpreted through MMY. Wikipedia says the following about Guna "Chapters 3, 7, 13, 14, 17 and 18 of Bhagavad Gita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita discuss Guna.[27] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%E1%B9%87a#cite_note-ckc-27 Verse 17.2 refers to the three Guna – sattvic, rajasic and tamasic – as innate nature (psychology or personality of an individual).[28] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%E1%B9%87a#cite_note-28[29] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%E1%B9%87a#cite_note-gideon-29 Sattvic guna is one driven by what is pure, truth, compassionate, without craving, doing the right because it is right, positive and good. Tamasic guna is one driven by what is impure, dark, destructive, aimed to hurt another, contemptuous, negative and vicious. Rajasic guna is one that is ego-driven, out of personal passion, active, ostentatious, seeking the approval of others.[27] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%E1%B9%87a#cite_note-ckc-27[29] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gu%E1%B9%87a#cite_note-gideon-29 " I am questioning this sentence: "MMY was saying that the TM practice can lead one to cosmic consciousness and enlightenment. Thus, one is freed from the bondage of actions and Karma in this lifetime." Specifically, I am questioning your statement that attaining cosmic consciousness and enlightenment (as defined by MMY) will free a person from the bondage of actions and Karma in this lifetime. Perhaps you mean that TM helps to *smooth out* the influence or intensity of the "gunas," as qualities in a personality. These gunas, *innate* as they are to human personality are never fully eliminated or "dispelled" are they? There was ample evidence here during the first couple of years I was here, that in fact, TM meditation or not, these Gunas representing feelings and actions (e.g., compassion, contempt) were alive and well in all the posters. I also question the idea that attaining "enlightenment" by way of a TM practice will free one from one's karma (I assume you mean negative) *in this lifetime.* That is a very bold statement. How do you know this? Is it something we can know, as human beings? Perhaps it is more that TM meditation serves as a tool to resolve and put to rest perceived negative karma in this lifetime, perhaps as a result of new actions reflecting the qualities of a Sattvic guna . ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote : Emily, The Gita states that humans are in bondage due to the gunas and karma. MMY mentions in his commentary that we are all affected by the gunas since these are related to the basic elements such as earth, water, fire, air and ether. Since we are composed of these elements, we are therefore affected by the gunas-- and so are the other living beings that inhabit the earth. The TM tradition interprets the method to avoid the influence of the "gunas" by merely being without them as stated in Chapter 2 of the Gita. This is the reason why TMers meditate to dispel these gunas. Hence, over time the meditator can learn to maintain transcendental consciousness or "bliss consciousness" during the waking portion of our life. Over time, the bliss consciousness can be maintained during the sleeping and dreaming stage of life. When bliss consciousness if permanently maintained during the various stages of life, the TM tradition states that the person has reached "cosmic consciousness", the level in which the person attains "heaven here on earth". These are all mentioned in MMY's commentary to the Gita. He also wrote about these in his "Science of Being and Art of Living". In my opinion, this is the gift that Guru Dev and MMY have brought to the world. Any more questions? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <emily.mae50@...> wrote : Just fyi, I wasn't questioning the first sentence here. I was questioning the second sentence and how you know this. "MMY was saying that the TM practice can lead one to cosmic consciousness and enlightenment. Thus, one is freed from the bondage of actions and Karma in this lifetime. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote : Yifuxero, I've read MMY's commentary to the B Gita several times over the years. And I've always found something insightful about TM and its relationship to the Gita. His commentary gives a first hand account of how to understand the the meditation experience as to what is transcendental conscious and when one has reached cosmic consciousness or God consciousness.. These terms are specific and are unique to the TM method. But the other meditation techniques probably have the same levels of consciousness but are labelled with different names. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <yifuxero@...> wrote : Thx Jr_esq for your comment below: "MMY was saying that the TM practice can lead one to cosmic consciousness and enlightenment. Thus, one is freed from the bondage of actions and Karma in this lifetime. As such, it is possible to be detached or maintain Self consciousness permanently while engaging in actions while living here on earth. MMY coined the phrase, "heaven on earth." Right, that's MMY's opinion, but there are differences in some other Traditions. Also, the notion that Enlightened people are free from the bondage of karma, this may not be true. The Self is already free from karma no matter what state, but we are talking about the relative body and subtle body. How about the cases of notorious Enlightened (probably) Gurus who abuse women and are obviously greedy? Are they free? I dount it! Some example of different opinions in other Traditions: 1. In the Sant Mat Tradition, people are not free of karma until they are able to travel out of the body at will, including at the time of death. 2. In the Kriya Yoga Tradition,, freedom from the clutches of karma requires to signs of development:: First, Enlightenment, and Second, being able to travel out of the body at the time of death, (willfully and at the time of one's choosing)). This grants the candidate entry into the Higher astral plane, Hiranyaloka, which is occupied by many types of Beings, but also those Enlightened people who have not fully worked out their karma. But again, this is only for the advanced Enlightened people who can travel out of their bodies willfully at the time of death. Then, after staying in Hiranyaloka for a time and being instructed by Advanced Teachers such as Sri Yukteswar, only then are they able to access the Causal plane. All of this is discussed in the article "The Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar", (enter that into Google). It's a Chapter in Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi. SHALOM ."
