--- In [email protected], Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote: > > >>> And sad. A collective cheer should go up for > >>> realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. > >>> > >> > >> I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up > >> the possibility > >> that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang > >> culture is actually > >> Spiritual Codependence? > >> > >> Never mind then! > >> > > > > Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does > > sound interesting. > > My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on > a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a > "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the > pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could > describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be > contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the > patterns I've observed. > > In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person > claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state > can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated. > > Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where > the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their > own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit > with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The > receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* > accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since > this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually > supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. > A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your > enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no > argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious > agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is > sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As > the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit > contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but > instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken > others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who > would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. > An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was > genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often > "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may > actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" > is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of > awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* > but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some > intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who > are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some > subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the > group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle > unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the > group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting. > > I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be > codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave > them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, > but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense > of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent > collective consciousness. > > There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important > one IME. > Hi Vaj, and thanks for your comments and perspective on collective satsanging here on FFL (I am assuming this is the group you refer to and have been observing...).
I can certainly see from one POV how a group of awakened individuals could appear to have some silent codependent agreement with one another, driven by ego satisfaction. And how from this same POV, there is no argument and little criticism within the group because this would fracture the codependent nature of it. On the other hand, from another POV, I can see the enjoyment of a group of awakened individuals sharing perspectives on a state of ultimate freedom. With no consequences to other observers, one way or another- no $$ requested, or follow up meetings advertised... Because the same event is observed and experienced differently according to our consciousness, I cannot say that everyone should experience this group of awakened individuals in the same way. However, a couple of key points about this discussion: 1. determination of awakening, or not, of another is something sensed on a feeling level. Proclamations do no good, unless the person is walking the walk so to speak. Unfortunately it seems that the ones best able to see another's awakening are those who are awake themselves... 2. the challenging of awakened states is helpful to a point. However to ceaselessly challenge, disagree and insult those who state that they are awakened can be harmful to observers of this dialogue. It does no harm to the awakened person, for obvious reasons. But it is not a good thing in my opinion to in effect broadcast a message that awakening is not possible for the typical seeker, unless an endless and often nebulous set of conditions are met first. Awakening is not something easily established. It takes much dedication, devotion, faith, strength, and discrimination for anyone who truly wants to reach that goal. To state regularly as some here have done, that such an experience can never be established by the tools many of have at our disposal (TM and TM-Sidhis), is to me a disservice to those whose ardently seek to have their deepest desires fulfilled. Seeking is a normal and often difficult part of the process of awakening. As we work on one area and the next, creating gradually and permanenently our awakened selves, it is helpful to keep in our minds and hearts that the goal will be reached. And not through any other means than alternating meditation with activity. Thank you. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
