One more point about Astrology.  It is making a scientific claim about
the relationship between the chart systems and their predictive
ability.  It is bound by the system it mimics, but had not yet passed
the test.  If it claimed a mystical, un-measurable connection, it
would be better off in my opinion.

Last time I read the New Testament, I was surprised by the extensive
proof system employed.  The divinity of Jesus is demonstrated by a
series of miracles which are meant as a kind of scientific evidence
that he was extra ordinary.  I had forgotten how much of the text is
taken up by this "evidence".  The second case is made on the basis of
his fitting the poetic words of the Old Testament predictions for the
messiah.  It is only when it is pointed out to a Christian that the
evidence is poor that they resort to the tactic of claiming that faith
is the important aspect.  The Bible is a whole series of poor evidence
presentations meant to prove his divinity in an evidence-based method
that would be scientific if they followed any of the rules of evidence
in the scientific method. (which they do not). 

--- In, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In, "curtisdeltablues" 
> <curtisdeltablues@> wrote:
> >
> > I think I understand your point about Kurtz and astrology.
> > 
> >  Astrology's heavenly omens and signs were replaced by
> > > > the regularities discernible by physics and astronomy. Science
> > > > abandons occult for material causes."
> > 
> > His other examples seem clearer.  He may mean that the focus on
> > planets shifted from the value-laden astrological interpretation of
> > the meaning of planetary motion, to the measurable physical motions
> > focus of modern astronomy.
> Perhaps; the way you put it makes more sense, but I'm
> not sure how significant a point it is.  Why is the
> shift away from values and toward measurement a Good
> Thing, necessarily?  Why can't there be both?
> > But I think he makes this point poorly for
> > Vedic astrology which obviously focuses on planetary motion as well 
> > as they could with the tools they had.  The case for western 
> > astrology seems better.  In western astrology the 30 degree arch 
> > system is a complete fabrication and does not relate to the 
> > physical positions of the stars and planets.  Here the focus is on
> > the convenience of a simple consistent system and abandons the 
> > regularities discernible by physics and astronomy.
> I'm not sure I'd say it's a "complete fabrication";
> it's just based on a different frame of reference.
> It is a more human-centered one, though, so in that
> sense you could say it was less scientific.
> > Perhaps he needs a better editor...know any?
> Heh...
> > I'll give your other points some more thought.
> > 
> > I was interested in these points but I can't figure out what I 
> think yet:
> > 
> >  And they can and should be applied to "subjective sciences"
> > > 
> > > I agree, but I very seriously doubt that Kurtz would.
> You might enjoy Ken Wilber's discussion of "subjective
> science" in his book "Eye to Eye."  (It's one of his
> older works, but it holds up very well, I think.)  He
> makes the case for the basic principles of the
> scientific method being applicable to the exploration
> of subjective experience--not in terms of measuring
> physiological correlates, a la TM, but purely on a
> subjective level.  He's quite rigorous about it.
> I'd love to hear Kurtz's response.
> > > I have to say, based on these excerpts, at least, that
> > > Kurtz's thinking in this area is rather strikingly
> > > limited
> I'm finding it hard to nail down my own reaction, and
> I don't have the time now to spend trying to analyze
> it.  It's in the general area of his apparent feeling
> that science somehow trumps "magical thinking," that
> the two can't coexist, and I just think that's
> incorrect.
> Be interested to hear anything you come up with.

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