On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:49 PM, matrixmonitor wrote:
---On a conceptual basis, yes...Dzogchen takes place somehow beyond all progressions, and (as Vaj so astutely pointed out); doesn't involve the transmission of Shakti (unlike Muktananda's Shaktipat). But on a practical basis, (as Vaj so unastutely failed to mention); one (the aspirant) is still confronted with the problems of ingrained inertia, stress, vasanas;...etc; all of the traditional Buddhist (or otherwise) impediments to Enlightenment - such as the "vices" - that we may allude to as behavioral patterns connected to stress - that simply don't vanish in the blink of an eye when one attends a Dzogchen retreat.
Sorry this is simply wrong. You don't seem to have any idea of what Mahasandhi/Dzogchen is. One wonders if you even have that transmission.
Even as pointed out by the greatest of Dzogchen Masters (Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche among them - this is Vaj's Guru); the element of TIME invariably creeps in, and although one may "get it" (i.e. Grok "IT" to a certain extent); the fact remains that unless one is 99.999....% already realized, various impediments dissalow one's immediate Enlightenment even though the Dzogchen transmission is immediate.
What you fail to mention is that that Dzogchen Fruit, the realization of the Body of Light, is far beyond any of the TM conceptual darshanas or the TM practical darshanas (really basic yoga darshana, CC).
Unfortunately, most of the Buddhist Gurus (except possibly the Dalai Lama and a few others); haven't YET gotten the connection between the delay in one's hoped for immediate Enlightenment and the stark reality of time, time, time... ; and the possible cause of that delay: stress. But thanks to MMY, we new insights into the phenomenon of the progression toward Enlightenment; but at the same time, nothing is preventing people from "Grok"-ing the fact that they are already "IT". (even though tomorrow morning and the day after, one may have to Grok this again).
And again, this is totally incorrect. In fact the Dalai Lama, as de facto head of the Gelukpa sect, also represents the head of the Lam Rim (the Gradual Path), no?
Contrary to what the Neo-Advaitins like HWL Poonja would have us believe, simply Groking "IT" for the first time may be insufficient; and likewise, simply receiving a Dzogchen transmission a single time may not get people immediately Enlightened.
It really depends on your *definition* (more importantly the *experiential definition*) of enlightenment. Since that experiential definition is different for every darshana, the word "enlightenment" is only accurate if it is compared within a particular darshana. If you try to compare *across* darshanas (which is actually what you are doing), you are comparing apples to orangutans (actually much worse). Since each darshana not only possesses it's own View *and* it's own intendant logic, arguing across darshanas is a grand logical fallacy if ever there was one.
Like it or not, a progression of time is usually involved, due to ingrained stresses. Though MMY is not really one of my personal Gurus (I'm a devotee of Padma Sambhava),
But you are in direct contradiction to his teaching. You are presenting both a false Path and a false View. One is tempted to assume therfore that your View is false Gary.
may he be praised forever for coming up with TM and the connection between progressive Realization and the concept of stress release. Praise God! But in defense of Dzogchen, one simply ditch the attitude that one is not already Pure Consciousness (and then continue with the practice of TM tomorrow and the day after, and the day after....).
