Dear FIS-listers,
It has been a long time since I participated in discussions here. Just a few
remarks:
1. What is the definition of the term "order"? Unless we are able to define
it properly, we are entangled in a theological paradigm, like the medieval
"is nature moral?" or "what is the purpose of natural phenomena" ones.
2. I would suggest to try to define order first, and in my humble opinion,
two lines of though are possible:
a) the Colmogorov complexity definition. If there is order, then the
system allows compressed description
b) the evolution paradigm. If there is order then the evolution is
predictable.
c) order simply as a possibility of finite description by logical
symbols.
On the other hand we should always remember, that when we discuss Nature we,
in fact, deal not with nature but with its reflection (encoding) in our
conscious. Nature does know what is F, m and a, neither it knows Newton's
F=ma. F=ma belongs to our reflection of Nature, and experiments show that
with F=ma we indeed reach a certain level of predictability, i.e. order. Not
more. Any attempt to absolutize our reflection of Nature and to substitute
it for Nature proper will immediately lead us away from the subject deep
into the realm of theology and teleology.
I think the proper questions here may be instead:
1) Do we reflect Nature adequately in our conscious? (and here we go to
Robert Rosen's modeling paradigm)
2) Does this reflection have order? The answer is yes and no. Yes meaning
that we may construct logical systems "over" this reflection. No meaning due
to Goedel's theorem our logical systems will be either incomplete or
contradictive
3) How to measure order in our reflection -- see the above a) b) and c)
points.
Yours, Igor Rojdestvenski
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ericsson-Zenith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Foundations of Information Science" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] list discussions
Dear list,
I like this question "Is nature orderly?" and agree that it is worthy
of discussion. However, let me ask exactly how you would define an
orderly nature, how you would detect an orderly nature and what do you
think the implications are of it not being orderly?
Joe, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "any order we may
discern" and "logical in an expanded sense of logic"; surely any order
we discern is a priori logical in any expanded sense.
With respect,
Steven
On May 23, 2008, at 7:06 AM, Joseph Brenner wrote:
> Dear FIS Colleagues,
>
> With due respect to Pedro, my first reaction to Stan's proposed
> question is a positive "very useful". I believe that there are deep
> issues of randomness or spontaneity, determinism and computability
> that will emerge from its discussion. Another aspect is whether any
> order we may discern can be, as I suggest, logical in an expanded
> sense of logic. I would look forward to a discussion of this topic.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joe Brenner
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pedro Clemente Marijuan Fernandez
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 5:56 PM
> Subject: [Fis] list discussions
>
> Dear FIS colleagues,
>
> It is a long time that we do not have discussions in the list. I
> have not been able to arrange any other "planned session" after Bob
> Logan's one, due to work reasons (changing to a new job months ago).
> It is not sure at all that in a few weeks there will be a new
> session arranged. However, several weeks ago, Stan suggested
> starting an open, informal discussion around a simple question:
>
> Is Nature Orderly?
>
> As a side comment (or response of sorts), I quote from P.M. Binder:
> "The field of complex systems currently appears as an unfinished
> mosaic. Many capable researchers are polishing and gluing the tiles
> that may turn it into the queen of all sciences, the science of
> synthesis and surprise. As we realize how much everything is
> connected, both cooperation [or emergence] and dynamical frustration
> can become important tools for our understanding of how the world
> works." (2008, Nature, 320, pp. 320-21)..
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