Dear All, In agreeing with Bob, I would like to point out that his critique is not "theoretical philosophy". He is calling attention to something essential missing in the pictures and models of Stan and Karl, namely, 1) the "life and blood" of the world; 2) that that "life and blood" follows different rules than the entities in the models; 3) those rules are based on real dualities of equal ontological purport: order and disorder, continuity and discontinuity, entropy and negentropy; etc.; and 4) these dualities play out in real interactions in biology, cognition and society, for example in information and non-information.
It is perfectly possible to see "grids" of numbers and levels or hierarchies in Nature as abstract structures - this is indeed Karl's word, as is his use of "independence" - but this is not going toward the world, but away from it. The world includes Karls and Stans and Josephs and Bobs, and I challenge anyone to propose a theory that insures that our "antagonisms", which are real, also receive some logical treatment. I for one do not know everything about everything I'm made of (cf. our fluctuon discussion), but I have the feeling it is not abstractions or sequences of numbers. I mentioned string theory, but I am by no means pushing it as the full story. Cheers, Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Ulanowicz" <u...@umces.edu> To: <fis@listas.unizar.es> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [Fis] reply to Javorsky Dear All: At the risk of being seen as the one who tries to throw a monkey wrench into the fine discussion you all are having, I would like to mention that the foregoing thread had focused entirely on alternatives among monist scenarios. I see the world as dual, not in the sense of Descartes, but of Heraclitus. If I am correct, then any strategy predicated on a monist principle is destined to lead to disaster. (Stan and I have gone round and round on this. I see entropy as double-sided and not simply as disorder. [Ecological Modelling 220 (2009) 1886-1892].) But I'm hardly the only one to warn against a monist view. Terry Deacon's model of self-organization, the "Autocell" acts similarly. The process starts by using up external gradients as quickly as possible, but gradually shuts down as the autocell nears self-completion. (Deacon, T.W. and J. Sherman. 2008. The Pattern Which Connects Pleroma to Creatura: The Autocell Bridge from Physics to Life. Biosemiotics 2:59-76.) The best to all, Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert E. Ulanowicz | Tel: +1-352-378-7355 Arthur R. Marshall Laboratory | FAX: +1-352-392-3704 Department of Biology | Emeritus, Chesapeake Biol. Lab Bartram Hall 110 | University of Maryland University of Florida | Email <u...@cbl.umces.edu> Gainesville, FL 32611-8525 USA | Web <http://www.cbl.umces.edu/~ulan> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Stanley N Salthe <ssal...@binghamton.edu>: > *Replying to Karl, who said:* > > > one can use a stable model used by neurology and psychology to come closer > to understanding how our brain works. This can help to formulate the > thoughts Pedro mentioned being obscure. > > One pictures the brain as a quasi-meteorological model of an extended > world > containing among others swamp, savanna, arid zones. The dissipation of > water > above these regions causes clouds to form and storms to discharge the > vapor > within the clouds. The model observes the lightnings in the model and sets > them as an allegory to thoughts (these being electrical discharges) as > opposed to hormones (that are the fluids in the swamps). So there is an > assumed independence between the rainfall, the humidity of the ground, > cloud > formation and lightnings. The real meteorologists would not agree with the > simplification that the lightning is the central idea of a rainfall, but > this is how the picture works (at present). > > Why I offer these idle thoughts from the biologic sciences to FIS is that > it > is now possible to make a model of these processes in an abstract, logical > fashion. The colleaugues in Fis are scientists in the rational tradition > and > may find useful that a rational algorithm can be shown to allow simulating > the little tricks Nature appears to use. > > Nature changes the form of the imbalance, once too many or too few > lightnings, once too much or lacking water - relative to the other > representation's stable state. There are TWO sets of reference. The > deviation between the two sets of references is what Nature uses in its > manifold activities. > > > This model looks at the physical equivalences in two realms by > modeling in thermodynamics. Today in thermodynamics we have an advancing > perspective known as the `Maximum Entropy Production Principle´ (MEPP) for > relatively simple systems like weather, or Maximum Energy Dispersal > Principle´ (MEDP) for complicated material systems like the brain. In > both > cases the dynamics are controlled by the Second Law of Thermodynamics, > which > imposes that the available energy gradients will be dissipated in the > least > possible time, taking the easiest routes available. This becomes very > interesting in the brain, where the flow of depolarizations would then be > predicted to be biased in the direction of more habitual `thoughts´. I > think that this prediction seems to be born out in our own experiences of > the frequent return of our attention to various insistent thoughts. I > recommend that Karl inquire into MEPP. For this purpose I paste in some > references. > > > STAN > > > MEPP related publications: > > > Annila, A. and S.N. Salthe, 2009. Economies evolve by energy dispersal. > Entropy, 2009, 11: 606-633. > > > Annila, A. and S.N. Salthe, 2010. Physical foundations of evolutionary > theory. Journal on Non-Equilibrium Thermodynamics 35: 301-321. > > > Annila, A. and S.N. Salthe, 2010. Cultural naturalism. Entropy, 2010, > 12: > 1325-1352. > > > Bejan, A. and S. Lorente, 2010. The constructal law of design and > evolution > in nature. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, B, 365: > 1335-1347. > > > Brooks, D.R. and E.O. Wiley, 1988. Evolution As Entropy: Toward A Unified > Theory Of Biology (2nd. ed.) Chicago. University of Chicago Press. > > > Chaisson, E.J., 2008. Long-term global heating from energy usage. Eos, > Transactions of the American Geophysical Union 89: 353-255. > > > DeLong, J.P., J.G. Okie, M.E. Moses, R.M. Sibly and J.H. Brown, 2010. > Shifts > in metabolic scaling, production, and efficiency across major evolutionary > transitions of life. Proceedings of the Natiional Academy of Sciences. > Early > EDition > > > Dewar, R. C., 2003. Information theory explanation of the fluctuation > theorem, maximum entropy production, and self-organized criticality in > non-equilibrium stationary states. Journal of Physics, A Mathematics and > General 36: L631-L641. > > > Dewar, R.C., 2005. Maximum entropy production and the fluctuation > theorem. > Journal of Physics A Mathematics and General 38: L371-L381. > > > Dewar, R.C., 2009. Maximum entropy production as an inference algorithm > that translates physical assumptions into macroscopic predictions: Don't > shoot the messenger. Entropy 2009. 11: 931-944. > > > Dewar. R.C. and A. Porté, 2008. Statistical mechanics unifies different > ecological patterns. Journal of Theoretical Biology 251:389-403. > > > Dyke, J. and A. Kleidon. 2010. The maximum entropy production principle: > its > theoretical foundations and applications to the Earth system. Entropy > 2010, > 12:613-630. > > > Herrmann-Pillath, C., 2010. Entropy, function and evolution: naturalizing > Peircean semiosis. Entropy 2010, 12: 197-242. > > > Kleidon, A. (2009): Non-equilibrium Thermodynamics and Maximum Entropy > Production in the Earth System: Applications and Implications, > Naturwissenschaften 96: 653-677. > > > Kleidon, A. (2010): Non-equilibrium Thermodynamics, Maximum Entropy > Production and Earth-system evolution, Philosophical Transactions of the > Royal Society A, 368: 181-196. > > > Kleidon, A. and R. Lorenz (eds) Non-equilibrium Thermodynamics and the > Production of Entropy: Life Earth, and Beyond Heidelberg: Springer. > > > Lineweaver, C.H. 2005. Cosmological and biological reproducibility: > limits > of the maximum entropy production principle. In Kleidon, A. and Lorenz, > R. > Non-equilibrium Thermodynamics and the Production of Entropy: Life, Earth > and Beyond. Springer Pp. 67-76. > > > Lineweaver, C.H. and C.A. Egan, 2008. Life, gravity and the second law of > thermodynamics. Physics of Life Reviews (2008) > doi:10.1016/j.plrev.2008.08.002 > > > Lorenz. R.D., 2002. Planets, life and the production of entropy. > International Journal of Astrobiology 1: 3-13. > > > Mahulikar, S.P. and H. Herwig, 2004. Conceptual Investigation of the > Entropy > Principle for Indentification of Directives for Creation, Existence and > Total Destruction of Order. Physica Scripta. Vol. 70, 212-22i. > > > Martyushev, L.M., 2010. Maximum entropy production principle: two basic > questions. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society, B, 365: > 1333-1334. > > > Paltridge, G., 1975. Global dynamics and climate -- a system of minimum > entropy exchange. Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society > 101:475-484. > > > > Salthe, S.N., 1993. Development And Evolution: Complexity And Change In > Biology. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press. > > > Salthe, S.N., 2004. The spontaneous origin of new levels in dynamical > hierarchies. Entropy 2004, 6[3]: 327-343. > > > Salthe, S.N., 2010. Development (and evolution) of the universe. > Foundations of Science. In Press > > > Schneider, E.D. and Kay, J.J., 1994. Life as a manifestation of the > Second > Law of thermodynamics. Mathematical and Computer Modelling 19: 25-48. > > > Schneider, E.D. and D. Sagan., 2005. Into the Cool: Energy Flow, > Thermodynamics, and Life. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. > > > Sharma, V. and A. Annila, 2007. Natural process - natural selection. > Biophysical Chemistry 127: 123-128. > > > Swenson, R., 1989. Emergent attractors and the law of maximum entropy > production: foundations to a theory of general evolution. Systems Research > 6: 187-198. > > > Swenson, R., 1997. Autocatakinetics, evolution, and the law of maximum > entropy production. Advances in Human Ecology 6: 1-47. > > > Ulanowicz, R.D.and B.M. Hannon, 1987. Life and the production of entropy. > Proceedings of the Royal Society B 232: 181-192. > > > Vallino, J.J., 2010. Ecosystem biogeochemistry considered as a > distributed > metabolic network ordered by maximum entropy production. Philosophical > Transactions of the Royal Society, B, 365: 1417-1427. > > > Virgo, N. 2010, From maximum entropy to maximum entropy production: a new > approach. Entropy 2010, 12: 107-126. > > > Zupanovic, P., S. Botric, D. Juretic and D. Kuic. 2010. Relaxation > processes and the maximum entropy production principle. Entropy, 2010.12: > 473-479. > > > Zupanovic, P., D. Kuic, Z.B. Losic, D. petrov, D. juretic and M. Brumen > 2010. The maximum entropy production principle and linear irreversible > processes. Entropy 2010, 12: 996-1005. > _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis _______________________________________________ fis mailing list fis@listas.unizar.es https://webmail.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
