Dear Steven, Sadly Taking the time (and wordiness) required to explain my critique and redefinition of emergence is beyond the scope this venue and your patience, so I can only point to my too lengthy book for that account. Needless to say I do not accept either dualism or identity theory. My claim is that to understand information requires a theory of dynamical constraints, and since constraints don't have reducible components they are level specific relational properties, not identified with intrinsic properties of specific material objects or energetic systems, but not epiphenomenal.
Do I understand you to be reducing information to a stereochemical property? And do you reduce "knowledge" to anything that determines "physical actions"? Obviously, I must be missing something. I would not be alone in arguing that for something to be information "about" something, it must be capable of being in error. How can simple physical properties or causal interactions have this property of falliblism? — Terry On 1/30/15, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <ste...@iase.us> wrote: > Dear Terry, > > This "emergence theory," at least on the face of it, is then surely an > advocacy of dualism, since epiphenomenalism is logically indistinguishable > from identity theory. So I must ask how you propose to distinguish the two. > > "Information theory" is a way of speaking about what happens in the world. > As such it is a pragmatic, like many other pragmatics before it, it is a > step in the right direction but not, of itself, able or required to meet > the explanatory goal. > > My best definition of "information" does not standalone: Information is > that which adds to knowledge and identifies cause, where "knowledge" is > generalized to include all that determines subsequent action (importantly, > it is the immediate that includes all physical actions). > > It is possible, in my theory, to reduce reference to an intrinsic physical > property. Briefly, sense is formed as a shape upon the surface of flexible > closed structures (biophysics, with latent receptors and motor functions), > characterized by a holomorphic functor, covariant with another shape upon > the closed surface, bound as a hyper-functor. The hyper-functor provides a > sense/response decision point between the two. IOW, a clear reference is > always associated with a response. > > Regards, > Steven > > > > > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Terrence W. DEACON <dea...@berkeley.edu> > wrote: > >> Hi Steven, >> >> My apologies for wordiness. We all have our weaknesses. I am curious >> about your claim that a complete theory of information may be >> impossible. I am not even sure what this would mean — except >> irresolvable dualism. But as to the issue of whether I advocate an >> identity theory, I can provide a clear no. Mine is an emergence theory >> in which it is not possible to reduce reference to an intrinsic >> physical property. >> >> Thanks, Terry >> >> On 1/30/15, Steven Ericsson-Zenith <ste...@iase.us> wrote: >> > Dear Terry, list. >> > >> > I apologize that I have not had the time to keep up with this >> discussion. I >> > did try to read Terry's text but found it strangely impenetrable with >> many >> > more word than were necessary to make a point. This is, perhaps, merely >> > a >> > question of style, repeated in the recent books of his that I have >> > purchased but that sit essentially unread although I have tried. >> > >> > To clarify, I have spent more than my share of time reading the work of >> > Charles Peirce, readily acknowledged, although many of you may now >> > recognize my preference for his father's work and its priority. Both >> quite >> > brilliant men, but Charles suffers, both conceptually and in his >> readership >> > at the hands of neology. Who among us wants to sit through yet another >> > argument with followers of Charles on the nature of semeiois or a sign? >> Not >> > I. >> > >> > I have also spent a good deal of my time with the work of Claude >> > Shannon. >> > My discipline of origin is, after all (in French), "Informatique." I do >> > this not merely to comprehend Shannon's theory of communication but >> > also >> to >> > inquirer concerning the role that his mathematization plays in its >> > unfolding. I find, in the end, that the theory applies well to its >> original >> > intent, telephony engineering (a human activity), but it lacks any true >> > ontology. >> > >> > That is, from my point of view, communication does not exist because >> there >> > is a lack of continuity. What I may speak of instead is apprehension. >> This >> > suggests that no "complete theory of information" is, in fact, >> conceivable. >> > >> > I confess that I am stunned by Joe's advocacy of necessary duality. But >> > then, it is not entirely clear what he is implying. He could, for >> example, >> > simply be an advocate of a universal property not widely considered and >> > advocated by myself as "the basis of experience" or as Benjamin >> > Peirce's >> > "universal will" or Charles' (weaker) "matter as effete mind," all >> > being >> > the universal equal of gravitation and of light and to be found >> ultimately >> > in the same equations as a "force" that have an effect upon the world, >> > in >> > this case in the flexible closed structures that form biophysics. A >> theory >> > based upon such a premise, even though it requires something physically >> > "extra" today, is clearly not at all dualist. >> > >> > I, naturally enough, am sympathetic to Terry's denial of dualism, but I >> > wonder if Terry merely advocates an identity theory. As I have noted >> often >> > such a theory is, in fact, a dualism. >> > >> > Regards, >> > Steven >> > >> > -- >> > Dr. Steven Ericsson-Zenith >> > Institute for Advanced Science & Engineering >> > http://iase.info >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Terrence W. DEACON < >> dea...@berkeley.edu> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Thanks to Joseph for this spirited rejoinder, and to Krassimir for >> >> reminding us that convergence is perhaps more likely to succeed than >> >> any single-minded approach. >> >> >> >> With Krassimir, I am in agreement. I have probably overstated the >> >> priority of my own approach, even if I do believe it to be a best >> >> middle ground from which to begin formalization. This is a big >> >> challenge and I should celebrate the diversity of approaches more than >> >> I have. This is my path, and I have taken this opportunity to make my >> >> reasons for pursuing it clear. Like most of us, it is sent as a sort >> >> of mating call, in case others might find interesting insights there >> >> too. >> >> >> >> In response to Joseph, I would challenge you to specifically identify >> >> my homuncular assumptions, demonstrate where the autogenic model makes >> >> them, and deacribe in what ways you think that autogenesis is somehow >> >> not physically realizable. I admit to being blind to any of these, but >> >> I don't want to just convince you, I want to get it right. However, I >> >> am not willing to live with unresolved dualisms. And I don't quite get >> >> your comment about "dualisms that do exist in nature" and how you >> >> connect this with my presence/absence perspective. Perhaps this has to >> >> do with the fact that I am not satisfied that certain dualisms arising >> >> from quantum theories are fundamental, rather than the result of >> >> incomplete theory, and your own view which seems to embrace them. In >> >> which case we may need to agree to disagree. >> >> >> >> I am slightly perplexed and don't quite follow your implications >> >> regarding the specific proposal made in this piece. The dualisms I am >> >> hoping to resolve in this essay orbit around the difference between >> >> physicalistic and semiotic uses of the information concept, and about >> >> how this implicitly reifies Descartes' res cogitans / res extensa >> >> dualism, with reference and significance on the former side of this >> >> divide and Shannon information (and related uses in physics) on the >> >> latter. You can read my view as arguing that this dualism cannot >> >> merely be left as an unanalyzed assumption if we are seeking a >> >> complete theory of information. >> >> >> >> I anticipate that there is much unmentioned detail that remains to be >> >> unpacked and debated here. Pursuing some of these details could be >> >> very informative, even if it doesn't change entrenched positions. >> >> >> >> I think that it is interesting that so many responses have betrayed a >> >> sort of thinly veiled irritation and anger. To me it suggest that we >> >> are close to a nerve—i.e. some critical issues that are of central >> >> importance. >> >> >> >> Thanks, Terry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 1/30/15, joe.bren...@bluewin.ch <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch> wrote: >> >> > Dear Pedro, Dear FISers, >> >> > >> >> > Terrence Deacon has made a passionate plea for the proper >> >> consideration of >> >> > his approach to information science that his contribution merits. >> >> > But >> >> this >> >> > consideration is only possible if he is willing to accept that some >> >> > of >> >> his >> >> > positions may be contaminated with assumptions in a way that he >> >> > correctly >> >> > criticizes in others. As a specific example, we can all easily >> >> > understand >> >> > and agree that the incorporation of ‘homunculi’, that is, unproven >> >> > mechanisms, as explanatory, should be avoided. In my view, however, >> >> > Terry >> >> > has a small army of homunculi at work (sic!) who insure that his >> >> processes >> >> > of self-organization, self-reconstitution and ‘spontaneous’ >> >> > self-assembly >> >> > can take place! The finality of using his simulated autogenic >> >> > systems >> >> > is >> >> “a >> >> > rigorous physical foundation upon which” future complex theories of >> >> > information may be based. If, as I contend, Terry’s approach has >> failed >> >> to >> >> > take into account the fundamentally dualistic physical properties of >> >> > real >> >> > systems, it is hard to see how it could do so. >> >> > >> >> > In his reply to Loet, regarding cognitive processes, Terry writes: >> >> > “As >> >> > I >> >> > have said a number of times, my goal is not to deal with all aspects >> of >> >> the >> >> > information concept, and certainly not at the level of human >> >> > thought. >> I >> >> > merely propose to dissolve the implicit dualism in our current >> concepts >> >> at >> >> > the most basic level, so that for example it will be possible to >> >> > develop >> >> a >> >> > scientifically grounded theory of molecular biosemiotics.” No-one >> >> > can >> >> argue >> >> > with his first sentence, but the second has the implication that >> >> > dualism >> >> at >> >> > the most basic level in concepts should be absent when it is present >> in >> >> > reality. Again, we can all reject the straw-man of mind-body >> >> > dualism. >> >> > But >> >> > the dualisms that do exist in nature must be reflected in concepts >> >> > or >> >> > the >> >> > latter are outside nature and outside science. The pair >> >> > presence-absence >> >> is >> >> > one of these that I have offered, so far without comment, as one of >> >> these. >> >> > >> >> > As a substitute for what is referred to as ‘the implicit dualism in >> our >> >> > current concepts’, Terry seems to offer a repeated reliance on the >> >> Peircean >> >> > categories as having explanatory power. I have discussed, >> >> > accessibly, >> >> > why >> >> > these categories amount to epistemic classifications, a position >> >> > that >> >> > is >> >> in >> >> > fact confirmed by a member of Terry’s group. Ontological approaches, >> >> which >> >> > if looked at closely differ from the ones Terry correctly >> >> > criticizes, >> >> > are >> >> > given a back of the hand dismissal that suggests that the writers >> >> > may >> >> not be >> >> > familiar enough with them to make the distinction. >> >> > >> >> > A point of agreement between Terry and me is that a concept of >> >> > quantum >> >> > information should not be mixed with one of thermodynamic >> >> > information. >> >> This >> >> > does not mean, however, that the some of the dual aspects of quantum >> >> > entities are not relevant for thermodynamic processes, including the >> >> > properties, production and transfer of information. Terry is >> absolutely >> >> > correct to question the so-called ‘it-from-bit’ theory of >> >> > information >> >> > in >> >> its >> >> > simplest form. Again, however, alternatives are available at the >> >> > heart >> >> > of >> >> > which is exactly the ‘overlap’ between physics and information that >> >> > Pedro >> >> > calls for, e.g., those of Luhn and myself. >> >> > >> >> > I think Krassimir has a good point in concluding that we have a >> problem >> >> of >> >> > civilization and that all our efforts, scientific and philosophical, >> >> should >> >> > be made with the common good at the center of our preoccupations. >> >> > This >> >> > is >> >> > the theme of the Vienna Summit 2015. Information offers the ground >> >> > on >> >> which >> >> > standard physical and biological as well as social and psychological >> >> reality >> >> > can meet. It is from the most complex, interactive, recursive >> >> > aspects >> >> > of >> >> > these realities as well as from the simplest that we must learn. >> >> > Thank >> >> you. >> >> > >> >> > Best wishes, >> >> > >> >> > Joseph >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >>----Message d'origine---- >> >> >>De : dea...@berkeley.edu >> >> >>Date : 30/01/2015 - 09:31 (PST) >> >> >>À : lo...@physics.utoronto.ca >> >> >>Cc : fis@listas.unizar.es >> >> >>Objet : Re: [Fis] Concluding the Lecture? >> >> >> >> >> >>Thanks to Pedro and Bob for these last few comments. Indeed, like >> >> >>Darwin in 1859 we are still just beginning to formulate "one long >> >> >>argument" that will need to be progressively refined in the decades >> >> >> to >> >> >>come. The question is where best to begin the task of synthesizing. >> >> >> I >> >> >>too find the metaphor of searching for lost keys quite apropos, but >> >> >> I >> >> >>would beg your indulgence while I add an elaboration to this >> >> >> metaphor >> >> >>that sheds light on the perspective I have offered. >> >> >> >> >> >>Yes, we must at first search close to the light, even though there >> >> >> we >> >> >>will only find vague hints. But, importantly, as we cover more and >> >> >>more territory we will discover that the light progressively >> >> >>brightens. So long as we keep searching and don't walk out into the >> >> >>dark too quickly, skipping over important territory in between, the >> >> >>entire territory will become more and more thoroughly illuminated, >> >> >>searchable, and familiar to us. >> >> >> >> >> >>I believe that the light is brightest in the domain where we can see >> >> >> a >> >> >>clear relation between the two quite different concepts of entropy >> >> >> and >> >> >>the relationship of both to the concept of work. Admittedly, >> >> >> starting >> >> >>so minimally as I have in this essay seems remote from the interests >> >> >>of psychologists, anthropologists, economists and their kin, who >> >> >>demand an account of human-scale information processes, while at the >> >> >>same time appearing to introduce the messiness of semiotic concerns >> >> >>into the seemingly pristine world of information as a simple >> >> >> physical >> >> >>parameter. But of course the problem is to find the best illuminated >> >> >>middle ground between these two extremes, both still bathed in the >> >> >>darkness of simplifying assumptions that make them seem mutually >> >> >>exclusive— separated by darkness. >> >> >> >> >> >>This is what I am trying to accomplish. Though deceptively simple, I >> >> >>believe that the autogenic model system is just sufficiently complex >> >> >>to provide complete illumination of each of the critical defining >> >> >>features of the information concept—sign medium properties >> >> >> (entropies, >> >> >>uncertainty, constraint), reference (aboutness), significance >> >> >>(function, value, normativity), and interpretation (adaptation, >> >> >>intelligence)—while not artificially simplifying the issue by >> >> >> ignoring >> >> >>one or the other of these facets. >> >> >> >> >> >>Because of its simplicity none of these basic concepts are left in >> >> >> the >> >> >>dark as black boxes or excluded as taboo concepts. But of course, >> >> >>working at such a basic level means that the nature of more complex >> >> >>phenomena as thinking, subjectivity, language, and culture (to >> >> >> mention >> >> >>only a few) are not yet well illuminated by this light. This isn't >> >> >> to >> >> >>suggest that other pursuits in these other domains should be >> >> >>abandoned—for they at least clear away some of the underbrush >> >> >> creating >> >> >>paths that will help to ease the linkage between the different >> >> >>subterritories when finally the light brightens (to continue the >> >> >>metaphor). I just believe that this middle level is where the light >> >> >>best illuminates all the critical foundational issues. >> >> >> >> >> >>I don't expect agreement, but so far I haven't felt that the >> >> >> specific >> >> >>components of this proposal have been addressed in this thread. And >> >> >> in >> >> >>these closing days of discussion (as well as in future privately >> >> >>shared emails after this window closes) I hope to receive some >> >> >>suggestions and constructive criticisms pointing to where I might go >> >> >>next with this approach. >> >> >> >> >> >>Thanks for all your inputs. Terry >> >> >> >> >> >>On 1/30/15, Bob Logan <lo...@physics.utoronto.ca> wrote: >> >> >>> Thanks Pedro for your remarks. We have not reached our destination >> as >> >> you >> >> >>> point out but the important thing is to enjoy the journey which I >> >> >>> certainly >> >> >>> have. It is inevitable that with such a slippery concept as >> >> >>> information >> >> >>> that >> >> >>> there will be different destinations depending on the travellers >> >> >>> but >> >> what >> >> >>> I >> >> >>> like about FIS in general and the dialogue that Terry prompted in >> >> >>> particular >> >> >>> is the interesting ideas and good company I encountered along the >> >> >>> way. >> >> As >> >> >>> for your remark about searching where there is light I suggest >> >> >>> that >> >> >>> we >> >> >>> pack >> >> >>> a flashlight for the next journey to be led by our tour guide Zhao >> >> Chuan. >> >> >>> One common theme for understanding the importance of both >> information >> >> and >> >> >>> intelligence for me is interpretation and context (figure/ground >> >> >>> or >> >> >>> pragmatics). Thanks to all especially Terry for a very pleasant >> >> journey. >> >> >>> - >> >> >>> Bob >> >> >>> ______________________ >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Robert K. Logan >> >> >>> Prof. Emeritus - Physics - U. of Toronto >> >> >>> Chief Scientist - sLab at OCAD >> >> >>> http://utoronto.academia.edu/RobertKLogan >> >> >>> www.physics.utoronto.ca/Members/logan >> >> >>> www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Logan5/publications >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On 2015-01-30, at 8:25 AM, Pedro C. Marijuan wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> Dear Terry and colleagues, >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> At your convenience, during the first week of February or so we >> >> >>>> may >> >> put >> >> >>>> an >> >> >>>> end to the ongoing New Year Lecture --discussants willing to >> >> >>>> enter >> >> their >> >> >>>> late comments should hurry up. Your own final or concluding >> >> >>>> comment >> >> will >> >> >>>> be appreciated. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Personally, my late comment will deal with the last exchange >> between >> >> Bob >> >> >>>> and Terry, It is about the point which follows: "...there was no >> >> thesis >> >> >>>> other than the word information is a descriptor for so many >> >> >>>> different >> >> >>>> situations and that it is a part of a semantic web - no roadmap >> only >> >> >>>> a >> >> >>>> jaunt through the countryside of associations - a leisurely >> >> >>>> preamble." >> >> >>>> In my own parlance, we have been focusing this fis session on the >> >> >>>> microphysical foundations of information (thermodynamic in this >> >> >>>> case) >> >> >>>> which together with the quantum would look as the definite >> >> >>>> foundations >> >> >>>> of >> >> >>>> the whole field, or even of the whole "great domain of >> information." >> >> But >> >> >>>> could it be so? Is there such thing as a "unitary" foundation? My >> >> >>>> impression is that we are instinctively working "where the light >> >> >>>> is", >> >> >>>> reminding the trite story of the physicists who has lost the car >> >> >>>> keys >> >> >>>> and >> >> >>>> is looking closest to the street lamp. The point I suggest is >> >> >>>> that >> >> the >> >> >>>> different informational realms are emergent in the strongest >> >> >>>> sense: >> >> >>>> almost >> >> >>>> no trace of the underlying information realms would surface. Each >> >> realm >> >> >>>> has to invent throughout its own engines of invention the >> >> >>>> different >> >> >>>> informational & organizational principles that sustain its >> >> >>>> existence. >> >> >>>> It >> >> >>>> is no obligate that there will be a successful outcome.... In the >> >> extent >> >> >>>> to which this plurality of foundations is true, solving the >> >> >>>> microphysical >> >> >>>> part would be of little help to adumbrating the >> >> >>>> neuronal/psychological >> >> >>>> or >> >> >>>> the social information arena. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> The roadmap Bob suggests is an obligatory exploration to advance; >> we >> >> may >> >> >>>> disagree in the ways and means, but not in the overall goal. It >> >> >>>> is >> a >> >> >>>> mind >> >> >>>> boggling exercise as we have to confront quite different >> >> >>>> languages >> >> >>>> and >> >> >>>> styles of thinking. For instance, the next session we will have >> >> >>>> at >> >> >>>> FIS >> >> >>>> (in >> >> >>>> a few weeks) is an attempt of an excursion on "Intelligence >> >> >>>> Science". >> >> >>>> Presented by Zhao Chuan, the aim is of confronting the phenomenon >> of >> >> >>>> intelligence from a global perspective amalgamating science >> >> (artificial >> >> >>>> intelligence), emotions, and art (poetic and pictorial). Not >> >> >>>> easy, >> >> >>>> but >> >> >>>> we >> >> >>>> will try >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Anyhow, Terry, we much appreciate your insights and the >> >> >>>> responses >> >> >>>> you >> >> >>>> have produced along the Lecture. It was a nice intellectual >> >> >>>> exercise. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Best wishes to all---Pedro >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>> Pedro C. Marijuán >> >> >>>> Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group >> >> >>>> Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud >> >> >>>> Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) >> >> >>>> Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X >> >> >>>> 50009 Zaragoza, Spain >> >> >>>> Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) >> >> >>>> pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es >> >> >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ >> >> >>>> ------------------------------------------------- >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >>>> Fis mailing list >> >> >>>> Fis@listas.unizar.es >> >> >>>> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >> >>Professor Terrence W. Deacon >> >> >>University of California, Berkeley >> >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >> >> >>Fis mailing list >> >> >>Fis@listas.unizar.es >> >> >>http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Fis mailing list >> >> > Fis@listas.unizar.es >> >> > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Professor Terrence W. Deacon >> >> University of California, Berkeley >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Fis mailing list >> >> Fis@listas.unizar.es >> >> http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- >> Professor Terrence W. Deacon >> University of California, Berkeley >> > -- Professor Terrence W. Deacon University of California, Berkeley _______________________________________________ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
