On May 31, 2011, at 7:30 AM, Alan Kay wrote: > Hi Cornelius > > There are lots of egregiously wrong things in the web design. Perhaps one of > the simplest is that the browser folks have lacked the perspective to see > that the browser is not like an application, but like an OS. i.e. what it > really needs to do is to take in and run foreign code (including low level > code) safely and coordinate outputs to the screen (Google is just starting to > realize this with NaCl after much prodding and beating.) > > I think everyone can see the implications of these two perspectives and what > they enable or block
Some of the implications, anyway. The benefits of the OS-perspective are clear. Once it hits its stride, there will be no (technical) barriers to deploying the sorts of systems that we talk about here (Croquet-Worlds-Frank-OMeta-whatnot). Others will be doing their own cool things, and there will be much creativity and innovation. However, elsewhere in this thread it is noted that the HTML-web is structured-enough to be indexable, mashupable, and so forth. It makes me wonder: is there a risk that the searchability, etc. of the web will be degraded by the appearance of a number of mutually-incompatible better-than-HTML web technologies? Probably not... in the worst case, someone who wants to be searchable can also publish in the "legacy" format. However, can we do better than that? I guess the answer depends on which aspect of the status quo we're trying to improve on (searchability, mashups, etc). For search, there must be plenty of technologies that can improve on HTML by decoupling search-metadata from presentation/interaction (such as OpenSearch, mentioned elsewhere in this thread). Mashups seem harder... maybe it needs to happen organically as some of the newly-possible systems find themselves converging in some areas. But I'm not writing because I know the answers, but rather the opposite. What do you think? Cheers, Josh > Cheers, > > Alan > > From: Cornelius Toole <[email protected]> > To: Fundamentals of New Computing <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 7:16:20 AM > Subject: Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models? > > Thanks Merik, > > I've read/watch the OOPSLA'97 keynote before, but hadn't seen the first > video. > I'm having problems with the first one(the talk at UIUC). Has anyone been > able to watch past the first hour. I get up to the point where Alex speaks > and it freezes. > > I've just recently read Roy Fielding's dissertation on the architecture of > the Web. Two prominent features of web architecture are the (1) client-server > hierarchical style and (2) the layering abstraction style. My take away from > that is how all of abstraction layers of the web software stack get in the > way of the applications that want to use the machine. Style 1 is counter to > the notion of the 'no centers' principle and is very limiting when you > consider different classes of applications that might involve many entities > with ill-defined relationships. Style 2, provides for separation of concerns > and supports integration with legacy systems, but incurs so much overhead in > terms of structural complexity and performance. I think the stuff about web > sockets and what was discussed in the Erlang interview that Micheal linked to > in the 1st reply is relevant here. The web was designed for large grain > interaction between entities, but many application domain problems don't map > to that. Some people just want pipes or channels to exchange messages for > fine-grained interactions, but the layer cake doesn't allow it. This is where > you get the feeling that the architecture for rich web apps is > no-architecture, just piling big stones atop one another. > > I think it would be very interesting for someone to take the same approach to > networked-based application as Gezira did with graphics (or the STEP project > in general) as far assessing what's needed in a modern Internet-scale > hypermedia architecture. > > > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Merik Voswinkel <[email protected]> wrote: > Dr Alan Kay addressed the html design a number of times in his lectures and > keynotes. Here are two: > > [1] Alan Kay, How Complex is "Personal Computing"?". Normal" Considered > Harmful. October 22, 2009, Computer Science department at UIUC. > http://media.cs.uiuc.edu/seminars/StateFarm-Kay-2009-10-22b.asx > (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) > > [2] Alan Kay, "The Computer Revolution Hasn't Happened Yet", October 7, 1997, > OOPSLA'97 Keynote. > Transcript > http://blog.moryton.net/2007/12/computer-revolution-hasnt-happened-yet.html > Video > http://ftp.squeak.org/Media/AlanKay/Alan%20Kay%20at%20OOPSLA%201997%20-%20The%20computer%20revolution%20hasnt%20happened%20yet.avi > > (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) > > Merik > > On May 26, 2011, at 8:38 PM, Cornelius Toole wrote: > >> All, >> A criticism by Dr. Kay, has really stuck with me. I can't remember the >> specific criticism and where it's from, but I recall it being about the how >> wrong the web programming model is. I imagine he was referring to how >> disjointed, resource inefficient it is and how it only exposes a fraction of >> the power and capability inherent in the average personal computer. >> >> So Alan, anyone else, >> what's wrong with the web programming mode and application architecture? >> What programming model would work for a global-scale hypermedia system? What >> prior research or commercial systems have any of these properties? >> >> The web is about the closest we've seen to a ubiquitous deployment platform >> for software, but the confluence of market forces and technical realities >> endanger that ubiquity because users want full power of their devices plus >> the availability of Internet connectivity. >> >> -Cornelius >> >> -- >> cornelius toole, jr. | [email protected] | mobile: 601.212.3045 >> _______________________________________________ >> fonc mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > > _______________________________________________ > fonc mailing list > [email protected] > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > > > > -- > cornelius toole, jr. | [email protected] | mobile: 601.212.3045 > _______________________________________________ > fonc mailing list > [email protected] > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
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