What does any of what you just said have to do with the original question about COLA?
Julian On 26/02/2012, at 9:25 PM, BGB wrote: > On 2/25/2012 7:48 PM, Julian Leviston wrote: >> >> As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of >> DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira which sits atop nile, >> which sits atop maru all of which which utilise ometa and the "worlds" idea. >> >> If you look at the http://vpri.org/html/writings.php page you can see a >> pattern of progression that has emerged to the point where Frank exists. >> From what I understand, maru is the finalisation of what began as pepsi and >> coke. Maru is a simple s-expression language, in the same way that pepsi and >> coke were. In fact, it looks to have the same syntax. Nothing is the layer >> underneath that is essentially a symbolic computer - sitting between maru >> and the actual machine code (sort of like an LLVM assembler if I've >> understood it correctly). >> > > yes, S-Expressions can be nifty. > often, they aren't really something one advertises, or uses as a front-end > syntax (much like Prototype-OO and delegation: it is a powerful model, but > people also like their classes). > > so, one ends up building something with a C-like syntax and Class/Instance > OO, even if much of the structure internally is built using lists and > Prototype-OO. if something is too strange, it may not be received well though > (like people may see it and be like "just what the hell is this?"). better > then if everything is "just as could be expected". > > > in my case, they are often printed out in debugging messages though, as a lot > of my stuff internally is built using lists (I ended up recently devising a > specialized network protocol for, among other things, sending compressed > list-based messages over a TCP socket). > > probably not wanting to go too deeply into it, but: > it directly serializes/parses the lists from a bitstream; > a vaguely JPEG-like escape-tag system is used; > messages are Huffman-coded, and make use of both a value MRU/MTF and LZ77 > compression (many parts of the coding also borrow from Deflate); > currently, I am (in my uses) getting ~60% additional compression vs > S-Expressions+Deflate, and approximately 97% compression vs plaintext (plain > Deflate got around 90% for this data). > > the above was mostly used for sending scene-graph updates and similar in my > 3D engine, and is maybe overkill, but whatever (although, luckily, it means I > can send a lot more data while staying within a reasonable bandwidth budget, > as my target was 96-128 kbps, and I am currently using around 8 kbps, vs > closer to the 300-400 kbps needed for plaintext). > > >> They've hidden Frank in plain sight. He's a patch-together of all their >> experiments so far... which I'm sure you could do if you took the time to >> understand each of them and had the inclination. They've been publishing as >> much as they could all along. The point, though, is you have to understand >> each part. It's no good if you don't understand it. >> > > possibly, I don't understand a lot of it, but I guess part of it may be > knowing what to read. > there were a few nifty things to read here and there, but I wasn't really > seeing the larger whole I guess. > > >> If you know anything about Alan & VPRI's work, you'd know that their focus >> is on getting children this stuff in front as many children as possible, >> because they have so much more ability to connect to the heart of a problem >> than adults. (Nothing to do with age - talking about minds, not bodies >> here). Adults usually get in the way with their "stuff" - their "knowledge" >> sits like a kind of a filter, denying them the ability to see things clearly >> and directly connect to them unless they've had special training in relaxing >> that filter. We don't know how to be simple and direct any more - not to say >> that it's impossible. We need children to teach us meta-stuff, mostly this >> direct way of experiencing and looking, and this project's main aim appears >> to be to provide them (and us, of course, but not as importantly) with the >> tools to do that. Adults will come secondarily - to the degree they can't >> embrace new stuff ;-). This is what we need as an entire populace - to >> increase our general understanding - to reach breakthroughs previously not >> thought possible, and fast. Rather than changing the world, they're >> providing the seed for children to change the world themselves. > > there are merits and drawbacks here. > > (what follows here is merely my opinion at the moment, as stated at a time > when I am somewhat in need of going to sleep... ). > > > granted, yes, children learning stuff is probably good, but the risk is also > that children (unlike adults) are much more likely to play things much more > "fast and loose" regarding the law, and might show little respect for > existing copyrights and patents, and may risk creating liability issues, and > maybe bringing lawsuits to their parents (like, some company decides to sue > the parents because "little Johnny" just went and infringed on several of > their patents, or used some of their IP in a personal project, ...). > > ( and, in my case, I learned mostly on my own, starting with a plain PC, > mostly first learning BASIC, and then later migrating to ASM and then C... > and doing so mostly due to fiddling and internal motivation, mostly doing > whatever seemed interesting and/or worthwhile at the time. but, this isn't > really the path of social or parental approval... ). > > > I think this is a large part of why society seems to value keeping children > "in the dark" about various matters (keeping many topics secret, telling them > fanciful stories which are obviously untrue, ...), and seems to basically > occupy their time with busywork (under the guise of education), presumably so > that they grow up to be just the sort of dull/boring/unquestioning adults > that society wants them to be (who will do what "the boss" says without > question or second thought, ...). like, they will always say yes to the boss, > just as they were supposed to always say yes to their teachers (and actually > care about their grade and GPA and similar...). (like, what if people would > just tell kids what is actually that case, portraying things as they are, > rather than trying to force-feed them a mountain of crap?... ). > > granted, whether or not such a system is good or bad may be a matter of > perspective. one person may conclude it is bad, and another may see it as > something good, and as something to try to capitalize on (try to get on top > and work the system to their advantage, ...). > > but, often, things just are as they are, and it is easier to "just go along > with it" (like, one goes with the flow, and stuff tends to work out well > enough...). > > > as for the "filter" and possible biases, yes this is possibly the case. it is > notable that people tend to show patterns evident of the particular times in > which they have lived. sadly, one only seems to have maybe a few decades > until they are seemingly frozen (unable to learn/adapt/...), and it is all > downhill from there (this may be almost an inevitable fate though). > > like, a person starts out easy-going and adaptable, then becomes all rigid > and super serious and controlling (apparently somewhere between the late 20s > and early 30s), with them being all rigid and uptight and like, this is the > "real world" and "time is money" and being unwilling to think about or talk > about anything not directly related to their job (except maybe stuff on TV, > like they will recap episodes of "CSI" or "Law and Order", or they will rant > about the economy or various politicians, ...) and similar (with an apparent > peak of "uptight jerk-face ness" somewhere between around 40-45). apparently, > "being an uptight jerk" == "being mature" (bonus points if they are prone to > making obnoxious comments, having a short temper, chewing people out, ...). > yet, for whatever reason, this seems to be the common expectation of an > "ideal person". > > somewhere along the line, this transitions to people going into story-telling > mode, where most of what they do is tell stories about the past and wanting > to relive "the good old days" and similar (AFAICT this stage is reached > somewhere between 55 and 65). this seems to sometimes go along with belief in > notions like "free love" and similar, and a tendency to personify inanimate > objects, ... (and they start liking shows like "Jeopardy" and "Wheel Of > Fortune" and similar...) > > personally, some of this does cause some worry, but I am already late 20s, > and as far as I can tell, have not turned into a raving uptight jerk (yet?), > though this is sometimes a worry (like, how does one really know how others > see them? like, a person may look good and upstanding to themselves, but > everyone else sees them as someone very different...). > > granted, there seems to be some room for variation (this is mostly just what > I have often seen personally, not to say that everyone in these age ranges is > necessarily exactly like this, so it is not my intention to offend anyone > here). > > > >> This is only as I understand it from my observation. Don't take it as gospel >> or even correct, but maybe you could use it to investigate the parts of >> frank a little more and with in-depth openness :) The entire project is an >> experiment... and that's why they're not coming out and saying "hey guys >> this is the product of our work" - it's not a linear building process, but >> an intensively creative process, and most of that happens within oneself >> before any results are seen (rather like boiling a kettle). >> > > yeah, maybe so. > > often, it takes a lot of work in "the basics" to really get something "off > the ground", but then one starts picking up a lot more speed, as one new > thing will tend to lead into another, ... > > >> http://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Main_Page >> >> On the bottom of that page, you'll see a link to the tinlizzie site that >> references "experiment" and the URL has dbjr in it... as far as I understand >> it, this is as much frank as we've been shown. >> >> http://tinlizzie.org/dbjr/ >> >> :) >> Julian >> > > ok. > > >> On 26/02/2012, at 9:41 AM, Martin Baldan wrote: >> >>> Is that the case? I'm a bit confused. I've read the fascinating reports >>> about Frank, and I was wondering what's the closest thing one can download >>> and run right now. Could you guys please clear it up for me? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Martin >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Julian Leviston <jul...@leviston.net> >>> wrote: >>> Isn't the cola basically irrelevant now? aren't they using maru instead? >>> (or rather isn't maru the renamed version of coke?) >>> >>> Julian >>> >>> >>> On 26/02/2012, at 2:52 AM, Martin Baldan wrote: >>> >>> > Michael, >>> > >>> > Thanks for your reply. I'm looking into it. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > Martin >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > fonc mailing list >>> > fonc@vpri.org >>> > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> fonc mailing list >>> fonc@vpri.org >>> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> fonc mailing list >>> fonc@vpri.org >>> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fonc mailing list >> fonc@vpri.org >> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > _______________________________________________ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
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