What does any of what you just said have to do with the original question about 


On 26/02/2012, at 9:25 PM, BGB wrote:

> On 2/25/2012 7:48 PM, Julian Leviston wrote:
>> As I understand it, Frank is an experiment that is an extended version of 
>> DBJr that sits atop lesserphic, which sits atop gezira which sits atop nile, 
>> which sits atop maru all of which which utilise ometa and the "worlds" idea.
>> If you look at the http://vpri.org/html/writings.php page you can see a 
>> pattern of progression that has emerged to the point where Frank exists. 
>> From what I understand, maru is the finalisation of what began as pepsi and 
>> coke. Maru is a simple s-expression language, in the same way that pepsi and 
>> coke were. In fact, it looks to have the same syntax. Nothing is the layer 
>> underneath that is essentially a symbolic computer - sitting between maru 
>> and the actual machine code (sort of like an LLVM assembler if I've 
>> understood it correctly).
> yes, S-Expressions can be nifty.
> often, they aren't really something one advertises, or uses as a front-end 
> syntax (much like Prototype-OO and delegation: it is a powerful model, but 
> people also like their classes).
> so, one ends up building something with a C-like syntax and Class/Instance 
> OO, even if much of the structure internally is built using lists and 
> Prototype-OO. if something is too strange, it may not be received well though 
> (like people may see it and be like "just what the hell is this?"). better 
> then if everything is "just as could be expected".
> in my case, they are often printed out in debugging messages though, as a lot 
> of my stuff internally is built using lists (I ended up recently devising a 
> specialized network protocol for, among other things, sending compressed 
> list-based messages over a TCP socket).
> probably not wanting to go too deeply into it, but:
> it directly serializes/parses the lists from a bitstream;
> a vaguely JPEG-like escape-tag system is used;
> messages are Huffman-coded, and make use of both a value MRU/MTF and LZ77 
> compression (many parts of the coding also borrow from Deflate);
> currently, I am (in my uses) getting ~60% additional compression vs 
> S-Expressions+Deflate, and approximately 97% compression vs plaintext (plain 
> Deflate got around 90% for this data).
> the above was mostly used for sending scene-graph updates and similar in my 
> 3D engine, and is maybe overkill, but whatever (although, luckily, it means I 
> can send a lot more data while staying within a reasonable bandwidth budget, 
> as my target was 96-128 kbps, and I am currently using around 8 kbps, vs 
> closer to the 300-400 kbps needed for plaintext).
>> They've hidden Frank in plain sight. He's a patch-together of all their 
>> experiments so far... which I'm sure you could do if you took the time to 
>> understand each of them and had the inclination. They've been publishing as 
>> much as they could all along. The point, though, is you have to understand 
>> each part. It's no good if you don't understand it.
> possibly, I don't understand a lot of it, but I guess part of it may be 
> knowing what to read.
> there were a few nifty things to read here and there, but I wasn't really 
> seeing the larger whole I guess.
>> If you know anything about Alan & VPRI's work, you'd know that their focus 
>> is on getting children this stuff in front as many children as possible, 
>> because they have so much more ability to connect to the heart of a problem 
>> than adults. (Nothing to do with age - talking about minds, not bodies 
>> here). Adults usually get in the way with their "stuff" - their "knowledge" 
>> sits like a kind of a filter, denying them the ability to see things clearly 
>> and directly connect to them unless they've had special training in relaxing 
>> that filter. We don't know how to be simple and direct any more - not to say 
>> that it's impossible. We need children to teach us meta-stuff, mostly this 
>> direct way of experiencing and looking, and this project's main aim appears 
>> to be to provide them (and us, of course, but not as importantly) with the 
>> tools to do that. Adults will come secondarily - to the degree they can't 
>> embrace new stuff ;-). This is what we need as an entire populace - to 
>> increase our general understanding - to reach breakthroughs previously not 
>> thought possible, and fast. Rather than changing the world, they're 
>> providing the seed for children to change the world themselves.
> there are merits and drawbacks here.
> (what follows here is merely my opinion at the moment, as stated at a time 
> when I am somewhat in need of going to sleep... ).
> granted, yes, children learning stuff is probably good, but the risk is also 
> that children (unlike adults) are much more likely to play things much more 
> "fast and loose" regarding the law, and might show little respect for 
> existing copyrights and patents, and may risk creating liability issues, and 
> maybe bringing lawsuits to their parents (like, some company decides to sue 
> the parents because "little Johnny" just went and infringed on several of 
> their patents, or used some of their IP in a personal project, ...).
> ( and, in my case, I learned mostly on my own, starting with a plain PC, 
> mostly first learning BASIC, and then later migrating to ASM and then C... 
> and doing so mostly due to fiddling and internal motivation, mostly doing 
> whatever seemed interesting and/or worthwhile at the time. but, this isn't 
> really the path of social or parental approval... ).
> I think this is a large part of why society seems to value keeping children 
> "in the dark" about various matters (keeping many topics secret, telling them 
> fanciful stories which are obviously untrue, ...), and seems to basically 
> occupy their time with busywork (under the guise of education), presumably so 
> that they grow up to be just the sort of dull/boring/unquestioning adults 
> that society wants them to be (who will do what "the boss" says without 
> question or second thought, ...). like, they will always say yes to the boss, 
> just as they were supposed to always say yes to their teachers (and actually 
> care about their grade and GPA and similar...). (like, what if people would 
> just tell kids what is actually that case, portraying things as they are, 
> rather than trying to force-feed them a mountain of crap?... ).
> granted, whether or not such a system is good or bad may be a matter of 
> perspective. one person may conclude it is bad, and another may see it as 
> something good, and as something to try to capitalize on (try to get on top 
> and work the system to their advantage, ...).
> but, often, things just are as they are, and it is easier to "just go along 
> with it" (like, one goes with the flow, and stuff tends to work out well 
> enough...).
> as for the "filter" and possible biases, yes this is possibly the case. it is 
> notable that people tend to show patterns evident of the particular times in 
> which they have lived. sadly, one only seems to have maybe a few decades 
> until they are seemingly frozen (unable to learn/adapt/...), and it is all 
> downhill from there (this may be almost an inevitable fate though).
> like, a person starts out easy-going and adaptable, then becomes all rigid 
> and super serious and controlling (apparently somewhere between the late 20s 
> and early 30s), with them being all rigid and uptight and like, this is the 
> "real world" and "time is money" and being unwilling to think about or talk 
> about anything not directly related to their job (except maybe stuff on TV, 
> like they will recap episodes of "CSI" or "Law and Order", or they will rant 
> about the economy or various politicians, ...) and similar (with an apparent 
> peak of "uptight jerk-face ness" somewhere between around 40-45). apparently, 
> "being an uptight jerk" == "being mature" (bonus points if they are prone to 
> making obnoxious comments, having a short temper, chewing people out, ...). 
> yet, for whatever reason, this seems to be the common expectation of an 
> "ideal person".
> somewhere along the line, this transitions to people going into story-telling 
> mode, where most of what they do is tell stories about the past and wanting 
> to relive "the good old days" and similar (AFAICT this stage is reached 
> somewhere between 55 and 65). this seems to sometimes go along with belief in 
> notions like "free love" and similar, and a tendency to personify inanimate 
> objects, ... (and they start liking shows like "Jeopardy" and "Wheel Of 
> Fortune" and similar...)
> personally, some of this does cause some worry, but I am already late 20s, 
> and as far as I can tell, have not turned into a raving uptight jerk (yet?), 
> though this is sometimes a worry (like, how does one really know how others 
> see them? like, a person may look good and upstanding to themselves, but 
> everyone else sees them as someone very different...).
> granted, there seems to be some room for variation (this is mostly just what 
> I have often seen personally, not to say that everyone in these age ranges is 
> necessarily exactly like this, so it is not my intention to offend anyone 
> here).
>> This is only as I understand it from my observation. Don't take it as gospel 
>> or even correct, but maybe you could use it to investigate the parts of 
>> frank a little more and with in-depth openness :) The entire project is an 
>> experiment... and that's why they're not coming out and saying "hey guys 
>> this is the product of our work" - it's not a linear building process, but 
>> an intensively creative process, and most of that happens within oneself 
>> before any results are seen (rather like boiling a kettle).
> yeah, maybe so.
> often, it takes a lot of work in "the basics" to really get something "off 
> the ground", but then one starts picking up a lot more speed, as one new 
> thing will tend to lead into another, ...
>> http://www.vpri.org/vp_wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>> On the bottom of that page, you'll see a link to the tinlizzie site that 
>> references "experiment" and the URL has dbjr in it... as far as I understand 
>> it, this is as much frank as we've been shown.
>> http://tinlizzie.org/dbjr/
>> :)
>> Julian
> ok.
>> On 26/02/2012, at 9:41 AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
>>> Is that the case? I'm a bit confused. I've read the fascinating reports 
>>> about Frank, and I was wondering what's the closest thing one can download 
>>> and run right now. Could you guys please clear it up for me?
>>> Best,
>>> Martin
>>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Julian Leviston <jul...@leviston.net> 
>>> wrote:
>>> Isn't the cola basically irrelevant now? aren't they using maru instead? 
>>> (or rather isn't maru the renamed version of coke?)
>>> Julian
>>> On 26/02/2012, at 2:52 AM, Martin Baldan wrote:
>>> > Michael,
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for your reply. I'm looking into it.
>>> >
>>> > Best,
>>> >
>>> >  Martin
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