1/ "it is a do-ocracy"We didn't know that. NOW I DO KNOW ! Thank you.I don't
think that the owner of a project will give the keys to the average people, do
you ?However, the leader of any project knows who to listen to.
2/ "I’ve rebuilt Fossil several times over the past few days. It still builds
just as easily as it ever did."Happy for you. When I will have time I will try
it again. 1.35 does not here the last time I did it.
3/ "If you want help with build problems, post your OS and compiler details
along with the error messages you got"This means that you don't understand.I
NEVER said that I will explain anything about MY compilation issue. I explain
that A compilation issue, I face, is NOT normal when in the past there were NO
compilations problems.These last days, I was astonished that some compilation
problems occur for some people especially for the Windows OS.How could it be
possible ? I don't know.
4/ "Testimonials are not facts, and expertise is relative"I pass the vaccine
discuss (a bit stupid but I accept that anyway).One day about a software I used
to play with, a guy said "compilation issue". Nothing else. The owner of the
project try the compilation process and then found it; fixed of course.To say
it in kids word : "may be there is a compilation issue just because HE SAID
it".IMHO "compilation issue" is a rumor [kind of]. Not fact at all ! However,
the owner have got a good nose so he found the issue. As I said, fixed of
Expertise is relative ? Nope, unless you don't know anything about the subject
(any subject) you talk about.In the past I've heard about CVS, then SVN came.
But when I've read GIT features I did say : "This is the future".You could know
people who have got high diploma in a field but he is bad in this field, or
another one who have no diplomas AT ALL and he is excellent in the field. I do
know people like the two I've mentioned.The best stay The Best (with a big
B).In our discuss, the Best is not you or me because we do not have very big
projects in our hands.People like the one I do know who plays with many [very]
big projects, have my vote. He NEVER said "Fossil is a possibility" he said
"NO".No is no sir.He was even very kind to tell me about some projects that is
not known, and especially one. This one, few years after, was showed and
explained in some magazines...
5/ "Project size is almost the very last consideration to take into mind when
considering the DBMS to use".If you know what a DBMS is, you could understand
the basics of what I'd say :a) Try to use the Best DBMS if human resources
(DBA?) could follow or if it is not forbidden by the host of your DBMS (only
MySQL) or etc.b) Use a DBMS that is not an issue for the project : if you've
got few names SQLite suffice, however if those names are sensitive information,
may be, a more robust DBMS is better.c) Some technological issue may encourage
a DBMS over another: If you would like to use a cluster of many computers,
Percona could be better than MySQL; I never said that MySQL could not do the
SO I could never said that the size of a project is ONLY something that decide
what kind of DBMS you may use.I use GIT for many little projects, but I would
like to use Fossil for a bigger one. Am I wrong ?
6/ "By your logic, Git is even less suitable to large projects because it
doesn’t use a DBMS at all, and “everyone” knows that large projects require a
DBMS."NEVER said nor think that. Sarcastic huh ?
Some answers are below.Despite the facts that I am not a linux developper,
Linux does not use any DBMS as I know (yeah I could be wrong but even if it is
the case they may use a little portion of it) but they use GIT. I suppose that
L. Torvald is a fool because he misses Fossil ?Is linux big enough for you?Do
you really think that for me a DBMS is a requirement for large projects ? I
even discourage people to use DBMS if possible."Try to use [unicode] text when
you can", I always say. It's like I say MongoDB, Redis, etc : NoSQL most of the
7/ Your discuss about SQlite weakness...a) Even a rock solid DBMS such as
PostgreSQL have got some weakness : you call it bugs.It is sometimes known as
slower because it is more secure ...b) You said that there's a lack of HIGH
concurrency with SQLite. Big projects needs "load balancing" (which most of the
time needs correct concurrency).In another word, Fossil is not suited for real
big projects.I was suddenly right ? :-D
c) Fossil could use SQLite if they want that, and it is not a bad idea. However
SQL is not the future, but this is another topic :-).
8/ Ah the "steal" discuss... :D
Sorry I laugh for what I've read.a) One could criticize whatever he wants IF it
is respectful e.g. correctly explained, etc.I could say that the mailman
configs are bad e.g. the one for Fossil, etc.b) So you could understand that I
could say that YOUR English is not suited for the target audience e.g. we don't
care if drh have got a PhD in English.
c) Of course I know what idiomatic stands for ! (really I laughed! even now I
Let's face it:a) I've got an American well educated friend who teaches English.
My basic English is good enough to be understood, and she noticed that I
understand even high level discuss.b) Unless I am wrong, Fossil is not for US
only citizen with PhD in English (major semantics).In a more layman word, most
people have very basic knowledge of English, especially technical English.And
that means that "steal ideas" could be at first glance misinterpreted...c) For
the record I do understand what DRH/whosever-you-name-him would like to say.He
could for example say "pick our idea it would help" even if it could be seen as
a bit pretentious...In short : try to understand Globish but explain in proper
d) I was told that most computer specialists are rude and brutal,
disrespectful, etc.I am the stupid guy who said "no some do, most don't".Didn't
I say that "steal idea" is at least disrespectful ?
9/ "Easy: network effects."It is so simple ? Wow !a) CVS was used for ages,
then SVN... Network Effect seems not come to SVN...b) For technical reason I
will use Git not SVN. The same reason arise when we compare Fossil and Git.I
can't use Fossil for big projects, that suffice.
10/ "I can’t see any messages detailing your compilation problems"Thank you but
most of the times I know how to deal in most problems when it comes to
BTW I've answered it few lines above, beginning at number 3.
11/ I've asked for a roadmap:
a) Easy to find address such as fossil-scm.com/docs/roadmapsb) Not an obscure
address that could only be find because I've asked you.c) Yay I do know that
there is a serious lack of communication in Fossil...
12/ "So tell us: what are your unmet needs?"I've said nothing about it : there
is no reason for that. See number 13.
13/ "Marketing" Community management ?
Let's see :"That’s what we’re doing here, right now. It is why I am answering
your email instead of ignoring it"a) some people would see this as a bit
disrespectful.b) I know what community management is, sorry for you.c) My
discuss is really about marketing. Ah, I know what marketing is.In [serious]
marketing, poll is necessary... especially polls about convenient way of
communication in our cases.Don't you (Fossil Team) say no to me ?These suffice
to tell me that you (Fossil team) know nothing about marketing (communication,
interaction, and so on).d) Two of us in the past talk about MatterMost one day.
Thank to this guy.
A guy who have a little skill about Marketing and Management (community for
example), knows about MatterMost and will even want some discuss about it.
14/ Just ONE example inside many that demonstrate how far you (Fossil Team) are
from what should be communication and marketing."Have you tried the
nick.lloyd-git-interop branch?"a) Why should I ? I ask something for normal
user not for geeks.b) Is it normal when the average guy (and some of you think
that I am one of the worst of Fossil user so I am the guy who just use basic
Fossil) ask for something to tell him to go in nowhere ? A branch is nowhere
!c) Imagine you ask me for some marketing knowledge. I respond : read books,
this one. Nice ?
Imagine a big project, would you ask people to test many branch/tags to find
his treasure, especially if the treasure is a must ?
So what the point may some people ask ?Good question.Why am i going to loose my
time to explain/ask for/debate about/etc. marketing communication polls
compilation issues when I read how and what the Fossil team answer to me ?Why
am I going to use Fossil when the learning curve may discourage and as I've
noticed, Git can do most of the job ?When I read some answers, some people
think that poll is an end stop, when for clever men and women, it is a
beginning of many things.
The only reason why I respond to your answer is that I've answered in this
topic about something which should have an impact in the future of
Fossil.Unfortunately, people could read whatever is said, my prose included.
This means that it is illogical if I don't explain my point of view.When people
don't get why marketing (communication) is important, they do not deserve
anything from me.
To sum up my point in this thread, when I've seen many thread about compilation
issue, it is an evidence of at least a lack of documentation, and believe me or
not, for some people it could be worst.Do you need me to explain what is the
semantic of the word "Worst" ? Clever people understand easily how tremendous
is the issue.No one would like any fight, at least not me. So try hard.
P.S. : I will never understand why should I give long answer when most of what
I say is known for ages...
De : Warren Young <w...@etr-usa.com>
À : Fossil SCM user's discussion <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Envoyé le : Mercredi 12 octobre 2016 14h46
Objet : Re: [fossil-users] Fossil on HN
> 1/ I ask for a poll
If you mean your request nearly 4 months ago in the thread about how the
mailing list is run, a poll isn’t going to affect anything. This project is
not a democracy. Like virtually all other open source projects, it is a
do-ocracy: that is, those who do the work make the rules. User voices do
occasionally sway those who do the work, but ultimately the project runs the
way they want it to run.
> 2/ I've tried to compile Fossil it did not…
I’ve rebuilt Fossil several times over the past few days. It still builds just
as easily as it ever did.
“It did not” is not something we can help you with. If you want help with
build problems, post your OS and compiler details along with the error messages
> 3/ I asked about a guy's opinion when it comes to Fossil in production use :
> He said no. Note that he plays with huge projects.
Several very famous people claim that vaccines cause autism, despite decades
and millions of dollars of research.
Testimonials are not facts, and expertise is relative.
> I've read that a big part of Fossil code is SQL with SQLite which is not for
> big project. Big projects uses PostGreSQL, MariaDB, Percona, Oracle, IBM SQL
> (DB2 and so on) …
Project size is almost the very last consideration to take into mind when
considering the DBMS to use. Features, cost, administration, etc. are far more
By your logic, Git is even less suitable to large projects because it doesn’t
use a DBMS at all, and “everyone” knows that large projects require a DBMS.
SQLite has two major weaknesses compared to the client-server DBMSes you
1. SQLite proper is not client-server, so it is a bad choice when multiple
computers need to modify a single DBMS instance. This is not a problem for
Fossil because we have “fossil server” which provides that piece. (Also ssh
2. SQLite is not well-tuned for highly concurrent access. This is only a
problem if you have frequent simultaneous commits. I don’t mean that two
commits run concurrently occasionally during the workday, I mean high levels of
sustained concurrent access. If that is not happening on your Fossil
repository, you don’t need a highly-concurrent DBMS as the Fossil data store.
With those two weaknesses eliminated as irrelevant to this particular
application, there is no reason not to use SQLite and plenty of reason to use
I suspect that if you reworked the Fossil internals to use a different DBMS
engine that Fossil would run considerably slower for almost all current users
of Fossil. Until you get to dozens or more concurrent accesses, the advantages
of the big client-server DBMSes aren’t going to show up for Fossil.
(I say that as one who has migrated code from MySQL to SQLite and observed a 2x
speed increase because the application no longer has all that client-server IPC
> 5/ And when a project uses the word "steal" I have a big doubt…
That’s a perfectly good idiomatic use of English. It does not mean what you
think it does. Please do not criticize other people’s use of English until you
have mastery of it yourself. I’m not trying to be unkind, I am just telling
you that you have no basis to be criticizing drh’s use of the English language
given your demonstrated skill level.
(Be assured that I will not criticize your use of French. :) )
> 6/ Ask yourself why people stay with Git/Mercurial …
Easy: network effects.
> b) A fossil release 1.37-rocksolid or 1.37-LTS without compilation problems
We can’t fix problems if you don’t tell us what you’re running into.
I just did a search on this mailing list for your email address, and I can’t
see any messages detailing your compilation problems.
> c) A strategy for fossil roadmap.
> d) A minimal understanding of Fossil users needs
So tell us: what are your unmet needs?
> (Marketing and stuffs like that).
Marketing is not the correct word if you mean to talk about improving Fossil to
meet user needs. Market research is part of it, but that’s only a tiny part of
I believe you should be talking about community management, not marketing.
That’s what we’re doing here, right now. It is why I am answering your email
instead of ignoring it.
> e) A fossil that do run nicely as it is with git that I do use.
Have you tried the nick.lloyd-git-interop branch?
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