Bianca Gibson Ben Finney +1 On Jan 13, 2012 1:23 PM, < free-software-melb-requ...@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> wrote:
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Re: Encouraging women (Ben Finney) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:44:25 +1100 > From: Bianca Gibson <bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> > To: Melbourne Free Software Interest Group > <free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women > Message-ID: > <CAOZrvMPkk1fGzjjRV-4=DOd7wG0Q62KnB1XLOR=0uakz0qb...@mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > " I see complimenting any person on their achievement, without > referencing their sex or discriminating on that basis, to be one > improvement of many." > I agree there. To me, were a lot of groups tend to fall short is including > women or other minorities in the group without making us feel like the odd > one out. Very similar stuff can be said for age, someone I know that is > male and went to his first LUG at 15 felt like the odd one out, the next > youngest person was 21 and he found it daunting. > > If I'm complemented like the example I don't take it in a bad way, to me > it's just a complement. > > It's not rare for someone to comment around the same time that they meet > you about there not being many women in FOSS. If you are a young woman it > takes a pretty tough skin to show up and keep coming, partially due to > pressures completely external from the group. > > I'm not particularly good at judging how daunted people feel because I'm so > used to gaming culture. I've found FOSS groups more inclusive mainly > because I've received very little unwanted attention, whereas in gaming > culture I saw and sometimes was the target of much worse. > That could just be because in this case I'm significantly younger than most > people. I'll try to find out more at Adacamp. > > I think people need to bear in mind that when a woman takes an interest in > computing, at least in my experience, you have to put up with a lot of > stigma around your interest and being discluded from a young age. > Right from primary school I was discluded largely for my interest in > computing and games over things like sparkly gel pens. > High School was better because I attended a partially selective school, but > a girl I knew that was years younger than me ended up not going on the > school camp she wanted to (games camp) because of the stigma around going > to the nerd camp. For her it would have been hard to go completely against > her existing social group and she would have been teased by them. > > The point of that is, that women coming to things like this have probably > had to take a lot in their pursuit of that interest. Probably been actively > discouraged along the way, and may well still be getting actively > discouraged. The complementing stuff isn't about coddling women, it's about > being nice to people in general and taking specific care to be nice to > people that may feel excluded, or have forces pushing them away from the > group in order to make them more likely to stay. > > Bianca > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/pipermail/free-software-melb/attachments/20120113/e4b8a657/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:50:21 +1100 > From: Bianca Gibson <bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> > To: Melbourne Free Software Interest Group > <free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women > Message-ID: > <caozrvmmzrcspyutnocbqwuwwhfqp2j59+1+tqblhy1cvj68...@mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > "Perhaps I'm going about it the wrong way, but I feel that the best way to > make women feel more included is to treat all people, male or female, with > the same respect. I would find it humiliating and excluding if I was a > woman and I found out that men were specifically giving me compliments > because their "woman manual" told them that women need more compliments > than men." > Mm, otherwise it seems like you are complementing just because they are > female, which has a chance of looking like ulterior motives. I think more > complementing of everyone would be a good thing in our community. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/pipermail/free-software-melb/attachments/20120113/37aa18ba/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:53:15 +1100 > From: Matt Giuca <matt.gi...@gmail.com> > To: Melbourne Free Software Interest Group > <free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women > Message-ID: > <can+kt7shvpan2uq80bn3fpc38x1lsf9qmmlgt8n7s50bspl...@mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Bianca Gibson < > bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Mm, otherwise it seems like you are complementing just because they are > > female, which has a chance of looking like ulterior motives. I think more > > complementing of everyone would be a good thing in our community. > > > > Exactly. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/pipermail/free-software-melb/attachments/20120113/64b153fb/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 12:57:09 +1100 > From: Bianca Gibson <bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> > To: Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au > Subject: [free-software-melb] encouraging women > Message-ID: > <CAOZrvMPF7PZD1TjqbrJSwOENNQVdizVPh6Q2y+B=mfzkpqy...@mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > No meaning to me replying to that talk, I just searched to find the email > address, hit reply and forgot to change the the subject. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/pipermail/free-software-melb/attachments/20120113/d1d819a6/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:04:31 +1100 > From: Andrew Pam <xa...@sericyb.com.au> > To: free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women > Message-ID: <4f0f912f.60...@sericyb.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 13/01/12 12:57, Bianca Gibson wrote: > > No meaning to me replying to that talk, I just searched to find the > > email address, hit reply and forgot to change the the subject. > > Changing the subject won't start a new thread of discussion; the > "In-Reply-To" headers preserve the thread regardless of the "Subject" > headers of the messages. It's preferable to use the "compose new email > to this address" feature of your email client instead of "reply". > > Cheers, > Andrew > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:07:22 +1100 > From: Bianca Gibson <bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> > To: Melbourne Free Software Interest Group > <free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au> > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] encouraging women > Message-ID: > <caozrvmn6hjhe0cho5zyk1qvtpyqe5d-cf487b-p4w2qsvf9...@mail.gmail.com > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Changing the subject won't start a new thread of discussion; the > > "In-Reply-To" headers preserve the thread regardless of the "Subject" > > headers of the messages. It's preferable to use the "compose new email > > to this address" feature of your email client instead of "reply". > > > > Cheers, > > Andrew > > > OK, I'll bear that in mind. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/pipermail/free-software-melb/attachments/20120113/57ae1592/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:10:58 +1100 > From: Ben Finney <ben+freesoftw...@benfinney.id.au> > To: free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women > Message-ID: <87aa5s73nx....@benfinney.id.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Matt Giuca <matt.gi...@gmail.com> writes: > > > What I took as particularly demeaning was the notion that women, in > > particular, need more of this style of compliment (which I took as > > condescending). > > What if that turns out to be true though? That, because of many > pressures and influences in specific groups and society broadly, some > people need a higher level of recognition and support if they are not to > feel excluded from a community? > > If that turns out to be true, I think it is significant for those of us > who want to level the field. And there are women, such as the author of > the document Bianca directs us toward, who are telling us that *is* the > case to some extent. > > It behooves us all to listen carefully when women tell us about the > experience of being a woman in our community, especially so because the > nature of what they're describing makes it difficult for me to perceive > directly. > > > Perhaps I'm going about it the wrong way, but I feel that the best way > > to make women feel more included is to treat all people, male or > > female, with the same respect. > > Yes. That respect, though, must include respect for the qualitatively > different upbringing of the sexes in our society, and acknowledging the > effects those have on what people need from each other. > > > I would find it humiliating and excluding if I was a woman > > Be very, very careful about starting any sentence this way. The nature > of what's being described ? a woman's experience as a newcomer in a > particular primarily-male community ? is not something you nor I, as men > raised in this society, can expect to thought-experiment ourselves into > with ?if I were a woman?. > > -- > \ ?The right to search for truth implies also a duty; one must | > `\ not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.? | > _o__) ?Albert Einstein | > Ben Finney > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 13:23:06 +1100 > From: Ben Finney <ben+freesoftw...@benfinney.id.au> > To: free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au > Subject: Re: [free-software-melb] Encouraging women > Message-ID: <8762gg733p....@benfinney.id.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Bianca Gibson > <bianca.rachel.gib...@gmail.com> writes: > > > I agree there. To me, were a lot of groups tend to fall short is > > including women or other minorities in the group without making us > > feel like the odd one out. Very similar stuff can be said for age, > > someone I know that is male and went to his first LUG at 15 felt like > > the odd one out, the next youngest person was 21 and he found it > > daunting. > > Here is a relevant article, on the experiences of women and the sexism > they encounter in what may be today's most-respected scientific project > <URL: > http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cocktail-party-physics/2011/07/20/is-it-cold-in-here/ > >. > > As that article explores, sexism in such environments is less often > overt harrassment, and much more often an atmosphere of being treated as > strange and otherly, in somewhat contradictory juxtaposition with a > plaintive why-can't-we-treat-them-like-the-boys attitude. > > > If I'm complemented like the example I don't take it in a bad way, to > > me it's just a complement. > > Thanks for that perspective. > > I must make conscious effort to give that account more weight than my > internal imaginings of ?how would I feel if everything else was the same > but I was a woman?. That can't apply: if I were a woman, *huge swaths* > of my upbringing would have been quite different, and ?if everything > else was the same? would not be the case. > > So, as is the case far more often than we might like to admit: it's not > about me. I have to listen to others describe their experiences, and > suspend my own bafflement at not being able to empathise completely. > > -- > \ ?Our task must be to free ourselves from our prison by widening | > `\ our circle of compassion to embrace all humanity and the whole | > _o__) of nature in its beauty.? ?Albert Einstein | > Ben Finney > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Free-software-melb mailing list > Free-software-melb@lists.softwarefreedom.com.au > http://lists.softwarefreedom.com.au/mailman/listinfo/free-software-melb > > > End of Free-software-melb Digest, Vol 17, Issue 7 > ************************************************* >
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