The tone of this thread is becoming very accusatory towards men. As I've
stated repeatedly, I'm all for treating women (and all people) with
respect. But that respect has to go both ways, and a lot of the opinions
I'm reading (including the shakespearessister link that Russell keeps
bringing up) are making some pretty nasty generalisations of men. Of course
they carry the obligatory "not all men, of course". But I'm starting to
feel like I'm being accused of misogyny on behalf of my gender. And because
I'm with the majority gender, apparently I'm not allowed to feel victimised
by this.

The gist of the shakespearessister article was: "men in general are
misogynistic -- not *all* men, of course, but that's generally how they
behave unless they control themselves." Now a sentence like that tends to
garner nods of approval and women saying "yeah, that happens to me" and men
saying "mm yes, I had better watch myself." But I think I would be smacked
down very hard if I wrote any sentence of the form: "women in general are
_____ -- not *all* women, of course, but that's generally how they behave
unless they control themselves."

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 10:58 PM, Russell Coker
<russell+li...@coker.com.au>wrote:

> http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have-<goog_7461340>
> regretfully.html
>
> Could ALL the men on this list please read the above blog post,
> particularly
> paragraph 11 onwards.  If you start reading the post and think for a moment
> that it doesn't mean you then IT REALLY MEANS YOU.
>

So this REALLY APPLIES to all males then? If you think you aren't
misogynistic, then you're wrong: all males are.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
>
> The above URL has already been cited.  I think that if this discussion
> continues in the current form then it will justify another entry there.


So unless everybody agrees with your point of view, this measured
discussion on gender issues in computing will warrant a sexual harassment
incident? You're turning this into a very hostile discussion indeed.

Such discussions give women good reason to fear for their safety.
>

And blowing it way out of proportion. Again: I'm not saying it wasn't
inappropriate (and I don't know all the details of this incident), but are
you suggesting that episodes like a presentation featuring a pornographic
image might actually cause women to fear they might be raped if they attend
a Linux conference?

As you apparently didn't read the above the first time I cited it I've
> pasted
> in paragraphs 11 and 12 to make it even easier for you to read it.
>

Don't assume that people didn't read your links just because they didn't
respond to every point. You're posting a lot of links.

I'm not sure what the point of paragraphs 11 and 12 are. Yes, we should
expect women to take it personally when we are debating about women's
rights. But is this a call to arms against any intellectual debate on the
matter? It seems to be saying that it's insulting to try and use logic in
such a discussion, because the topic is inherently emotional, and that a
man's opinion is not relevant to the discussion (the sarcastic "it merely
provides a different perspective" implies that actually, being a man isn't
just a different perspective, it's a *much less valid* one). At that point,
I feel explicitly excluded from the debate, because I apparently can't
understand the issue.

So far, I have seen a bunch of anecdotes about women being abused in free
software discussions -- which is bad, and should be discouraged. But I
still think it's unfair to a) blame these episodes (which are bound to
happen in any large community) on the attitudes of "all men", and b) start
talking about ratios and blame the low female:male ratio on this general
widespread mistreatment of women. I'm just trying to avoid having this
discussion be about vilification of men in general because of how we
apparently treat women.

If women aren't coming along to specific free software events because of
the way specific men in those groups treat them, then that is a problem
where the behaviour of certain men can and needs to be rectified. If women
aren't coming along to specific free software events simply because there
aren't enough other women at those events, then that's also a problem, but
it isn't a behavioural problem or a problem with men or a problem that is
easy to fix. That isn't a problem that can be "blamed" on any particular
group, it's just what's happening.

If I've done, or do, any specific thing that is considered inappropriate
behaviour, then please let me know. But otherwise, I do not want to be
vilified on behalf of my gender.

Matt
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