At 3:05 AM +0100 7/6/02, Paul Richards wrote:
>Let's start with a premise: No-one running current is using
>it for anything other than developing FreeBSD.

This is assumption is too limiting.

People running -current are doing it to test the latest builds.
What they *do* to test it is their business.  Ie, if I want to
install some port in /usr instead of /usr/local, that is something
I should be able to do.

>Given that premise, then there shouldn't be anything in /usr
>outside of usr/local, that wasn't put there by make world.
>Likewise the same should be true of /sbin and /bin.
>Therefore running,
>find $listofdirs -newermt $date -delete
>should be perfectly OK since it's only going to clear out old
>files that are no longer part of FreeBSD

Wrong.  It will delete files which were not installed by the
FreeBSD install process, but that is *not* necessarily the
same thing as "old files".  The fact that installworld did not
install the file does not mean that *I* do not want that file
to be right where it is.

How you test your -current system is your own business.  There
should be no command as part of 'installworld' which assumes
how I am going to test my system, or what things I am testing
on my system.  No blind 'find' command should be automatically
deleting any files on my system.

The perplexing part of this debate is that I do see what problem
you are trying to solve, and I *do* think it would be valuable to
address that issue.  I do not see what is so perplexing about
having a separate script, just like mergemaster, which a person
could run WHEN THEY WANT TO, and which would *LIST* what files
are in their system that would not be in a "pristine install of
-current".  It could even go thru, just like mergemaster, and
ask "What do you want to do about this file?  (Remove, LeaveIt)".

People reporting a problem could even be told to run this script,
so any other person who is debugging that problem can realize
exactly what is different about the first person's system.  I
can see that someone might say "Ah, you have some old perl
installed, and therefore I will ignore your bug report for now".

What would be the PROBLEM with THAT solution?

Please answer that question, instead of just reinterating how
you would like to add find command which will blindly delete
files from the system of every developer who is on current.

If 'installworld' starts erasing files on me, then I am going to
have to reserve a larger block of time to cvsup/buildworld.  I
will react to that by building world less often, and that isn't
going to help any wish for "valuable debugging".  As it is, I
have spent more than 60 hours in the last month just trying to
do a buildworld of current, only to be foiled by one problem or
another.  (nothing dramatic, it's mainly been a matter of picking
the wrong times to cvsup...).  And here I am on a friday night,
doing a new buildworld while running a -current system from
April 23rd, because all of those attempts have failed.  60 hours
of my free time in the past month with not a damn thing to show
for it, and you're going to make installworlds on -current even
more of a hassle.  Pardon me if I don't signup for it.  I will
simply drop back to using stable and I won't bother to help out
one bit with testing -current.  If you think that -current needs
FEWER people trying to run it, then feel free to screw up the
installworld target.

That's just my 2 cents worth.  I see the problem you're trying to
address, and if most developers of -current see this as a major
problem, then maybe it's better to solve the problem and drive
away a few other developers.

Garance Alistair Drosehn            =   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer           or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute    or  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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