Tory -- It was mostly that the stages seem to be empirically valid - I can recall many instances where I've been in a team or relationship that had the excitement and novelty of coming together, the inevitable misunderstandings/arguments about how to proceed, a reconciliation and synthesis of the preferred approach, and finally, working together along those preferred lines to achieve something. The hazard is that it's presented in such a way as to suggest that there's an orderly, linear progression, whereas we know it's often quite the contrary. I tend to see it (and, relating it to my thinking) as a continuum - the progression is a road map, perhaps, but I'm likely to be taking on ramps and off ramps along the way. It's not at all clear, either in my own mind or when I'm working with others, where the transitions occur: no bright line between "storming" and "norming", for example.
- Claiborne - -----Original Message----- From: Victoria Hughes <[email protected]> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Projects: 5 Stages Dunno. Not familiar with that. One aim of mine with this book is to phrase these ideas in a way that the beloved General Public can use them. Not just B-school types. I want the basic concept to be generally accessible. Needs to be, after all. Will look into this. Has it affected how you conceptualize and take action on ideas and goals? Or was it interesting (partly because of the alliteration, that memorable lilting he set up sticks in our brains like the Oscar Mayer Weiner song) Happy to hear speculations, no worries. Tory On Jul 9, 2010, at 6:40 PM, [email protected] wrote: Tory -- How does this relate (if at all) to the simplistic group dynamics model I learned in business school (attributed to Bruce Tuckman)? forming storming norming performing At a minimum, I'm missing a stage, and I'm sure there's much more to your analysis. Excuse my speculations. - Claiborne Booker - -----Original Message----- From: Victoria Hughes <[email protected]> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[email protected]> Sent: Fri, Jul 9, 2010 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Projects: 5 Stages Yup, in most cases. Sometimes limitations force unusual, possibly more successful, resolutions. I don't know the book, will look into it. Thanks. Tory On Jul 9, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Stephen Thompson wrote: Tory: I am part way through Scott Page's book titled The Difference He discussed the the power of diversity to produce better groups and outcomes. Are you aware of that reference? None, some, or much diversity would influence the stages or at least successful completion of the stages would it not? Steph T Victoria Hughes wrote: Fascinating. The original story and its appearance/discussion here. I am writing a book on the five simple stages that projects move through, from idea to reality. Part of the chapter, whose midst I am in, discusses "teams", inner and outer: the grouping of abilities and attributes required to get unstuck and get something done. Sometimes the 'crate o' chickens' is outside of us, if we are working with a team. Sometimes our team is made from aspects of our own mind: the internal - complex- interconnection of knowledge, abilities, ideas, etc all squawking, laying, attacking, defending, at once, inside our brains. Glad to know that even among the inheritors of the reptilian hind brain there can be cooperation for a larger good, even if that is for more chickens. Tory On Jul 9, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Ted Carmichael wrote: Well, it wouldn't ... unless you were selecting for the lowest producing hens. The GA selects for the groups of chickens that produce the most eggs, not the individuals. Some of those individuals may actually not produce many eggs, but they must somehow help the ones that do produce more eggs (in their group). -t On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Shawn Barr <[email protected]> wrote: Ted, I'm confused. Why would a genetic algorithm ever select a hen that produces fewer eggs over a hen that produces more eggs? Shawn On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Ted Carmichael <[email protected]> wrote: Nick, this is perfect. Thank you! BTW - the reason for this request is, my advisor and I were asked to write a chapter on Complex Adaptive Systems, for a cognitive science textbook. In it, I talk briefly about GA, and put this story about the chickens in because I thought it was a neat example. I'll add the references now. Much appreciated. -t On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[email protected]> wrote: Ted, Ok. So, if I am correct, this was an actual EXPERIMENT done by two researchers at Indiana University, I think. As I "tell" the "story", it was the practice to use individual selection to identify the most productive chickens, but the egg production method involved crates of nine chickens. The individual selection method inadvertently selected for the most aggressive chickens, so that once you threw them together in crates of nine, it would be like asking nine prom queens to work together in a tug of war. The chickens had to be debeaked or they would kill each other. So, the researchers started selection for the best producing CRATES of chickens. Aggression went down, mortality went down, crate production went up, and debeaking became unnecessary. The experiment is described in Sober and Wilson's UNTO OTHERS or Wilson's EVOLUTION FOR EVERYBODY, which are safely tucked away in my book case 2000 miles away in Santa Fe. Fortunately, it is also described in Dave Wilson's blog http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sloan-wilson/truth-and-reconciliation_b_266316.html Here is the original reference: GROUP SELECTION FOR ADAPTATION TO MULTIPLE-HEN CAGES : SELECTION PROGRAM AND DIRECT RESPONSES Auteur(s) / Author(s) MUIR W. M. ; Revue / Journal Title Poultry science ISSN 0032-5791 CODEN POSCAL Source / Source 1996, vol. 75, no4, pp. 447-458 [12 page(s) (article)] If you Google "group selection in chickens," you will find lots of other interesting stuff. Let me know if this helps and what you think. N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([email protected]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe] ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Carmichael To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: 7/9/2010 5:34:29 AM Subject: [FRIAM] Real-world genetic algorithm example... help! Dear all, I'm trying to find reference to a story I read some time ago (a few years, perhaps?), and I'm hoping that either: a) I heard it from someone on this list, or b) someone on this list heard it, too. Anyway, it was a really cool example of a real-world genetic algorithm, having to do with chickens. Traditionally, the best egg-producing chickens were allowed to produce the offspring for future generations. However, these new chickens rarely lived up to their potential. It was thought that maybe there were unknown things going on in the clusters of chickens, which represent the actual environment that these chickens are kept in. And that the high producers, when gathered together in these groups, somehow failed to produce as many eggs as expected. So researchers decided to apply the fitness function to groups of chickens, rather than individuals. This would perhaps account for social traits that are generally unknown, but may affect how many eggs were laid. In fact, the researchers didn't care what those traits are, only that - whatever they may be - they are preserved in future generations in a way that increased production. And the experiment worked. Groups of chickens that produced the most eggs were preserved, and subsequent generations were much more productive than with the traditional methods. Anyway, that's the story. If anyone can provide a link, I would be very grateful. (As I recall, it wasn't a technical paper, but rather a story in a more accessible venue. Perhaps the NY Times article, or something similar?) Thanks! -Ted ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ----------------------------------- TORY HUGHES [email protected] Tory Hughes website Facebook|Tory Hughes Art ------------------------------------ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ----------------------------------- TORY HUGHES [email protected] Tory Hughes website Facebook|Tory Hughes Art ------------------------------------ = ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ----------------------------------- TORY HUGHES [email protected] Tory Hughes website Facebook|Tory Hughes Art ------------------------------------ = ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org =
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