Well, to be clear, the journal articles I've seen *indicate* that the grandiose 
one's don't suffer much. I wouldn't know one way or another. I'm just going off 
what I read in the articles.

And I apologize in advance, but without *some* evidence in support of what 
you're saying, it's impossible for me to incorporate. The question I'm asking 
is: Are they the same people just presenting differently? Or are they really 2 
different types of person? I'm seriously asking that. And as I (and Steve) have 
mentioned, it's reasonable to HYPOTHESIZE that there are 2 modes, or some kind 
of self-presentation mechanism menu from which the narcissist chooses. So I 
really am asking the question.

You're not asking that question. You're *answering* that question without 
providing any evidence to justify your answer. I appreciate the conversation a 
lot. But it's the evidence (and the structure/type of that evidence) that I 
care about. If you don't provide any evidence to back up your opinions, I'm at 
a loss. And, also to be clear, a book from 1975 won't be very good evidence for 
or against a distinction that seems to have been made in the literature in 
1991. I'd love to find a critical "debunking" of the type distinction. That's 
what I'm looking for. But all I see are confirmations of the 2 types.


On 4/29/20 2:09 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> By the way, you say
> 
> ...that grandiose narcissists *don't* suffer much, but the vulnerable 
> narcissists *do*...  
> 
> Grandiosity is a defense against vulnerability in these people.  They're the 
> same people.  
> 
> I find Kernberg to be more masterful and credible that Yeomans.  Of course, 
> the former is the teacher of the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 2:59 PM Frank Wimberly <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>         Here, Yeomans refers to what I started this thread with, he thinks 
> narcissists suffer a lot, enslaved in an isolation. But the research I've 
> seen in journals indicate that grandiose narcissists *don't* suffer much, but 
> the vulnerable narcissists *do*. This is directly inferrable from the 
> *alternative* model of NPD in the DSM 5. And it's reflected to some extent in 
> pretty much any paper you get from a google scholar search.


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