Just on the M-R systems topic for now, the argument was about whether or not M-R systems
can be realized, say, in physical mechanism ... like whether cells are (actually) M-R
systems, versus whether it's just an ideal model of some conceptual use. The main
sticking point, in my not humble opinion, lies in ambiguity, multi-valued definiteness.
One guy (Kercel, I think) argued that computational deadlock (and maybe race conditions)
are realized ambiguity and that we always have meta-methods that circumvent them. So even
if the M-R formalism doesn't address those meta-methods directly, all we'd need is to add
that extra bit to the definition. I still haven't read Louie's More Than Life Itself
<https://bookshop.org/p/books/more-than-life-itself-a-synthetic-continuation-in-relational-biology-a-h-louie/7875334?ean=9783110321616&next=t>,
which may talk more about that.
On 4/30/25 2:17 PM, steve smith wrote:
On 4/30/25 10:52 AM, glen wrote:
So while "autopoetic surrogacy" fits the mistaken conception of these "games",
I don't think it fits the actual biology. I can't help but be reminded of the arguments around the
ontological status of Rosen's M-R systems. I don't know where it stands now, but when I cared about
it, most people thought they could not be actual, only conceptual.
I will grant that my "autopoetic surrogacy" is a deliberately provocative,
self-flagellating, somewhat toxic counter-ideal. ]
Great reference to Rosen's Metabolism-Repair systems... though I'm not clear how one distinguishes
"actual" from "conceptual" in this context. It think it is all an
abstraction... useful in some contexts, probably totally specious/spurious in others?
I asked GPT the question but I won't abuse anyone here with the "answer" even
though I think it was helpful to my discursive mind (where helpful sadly might mean just
compounding my discursions).
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