Apparently my attempt at wry humor was futile. Precisely because, under whatever your definition of "torture" is, the information extracted due to extremis is unreliable, and the moral hazard of doing so so great, anything that involves "torture" is a violation of ethics, even military ones.
Make me listen to Barney for hours, and I'm likely to tell you the sky is purple. >-----Original Message----- >From: Alex Eckelberry [mailto:[email protected]] >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 6:09 PM >To: Tomas L. Byrnes; Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & >Hannah >Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right > >Respectfully, that's quite different. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tomas L. Byrnes [mailto:[email protected]] >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 9:07 PM >To: Alex Eckelberry; Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & >Hannah >Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right > >I think it depends on what you classify as torture. Apparently, this now >includes what the parents of most teenagers endure nightly. > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/19/usa.guantanamo > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Alex Eckelberry [mailto:[email protected]] >>Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 5:58 PM >>To: Tomas L. Byrnes; Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & >>Hannah >>Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right >> >>True, and there is a point of ethics vs. morals. But in the end, >>there's a line that, IMHO, shouldn't be crossed. >> >>Besides, at a purely ethical level, torture is a low-quality >>interrogation technique. It's overrated in its effectiveness, and >>creates boomerang effects which don't benefit an overall cause. >> >>Nevertheless, even arguing torture at a logical level is difficult for >>me. It's just reprehensible, not because of some pacificist ideology: >>Because beating the living shit out of someone for information brings >us >>to the level of animals, and that's what we've been trying to evolve >>from for a very long time. >> >>Something Matthew Alexander spoke and wrote of recently: >> >>http://snipurl.com/8wosv >> >> >>Alex >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes >>Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:19 PM >>To: Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah >>Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right >> >>I guess it depends on who you think you owe an ethical duty to, doesn't > >>it. >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] >>>On Behalf Of Gadi Evron >>>Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM >>>To: Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah >>>Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>>Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right >>> >>>On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah >>wrote: >>>> People are still willing to torture people, when told to do so by an >>>authority. >>>> >>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/health/7791278.stm >>>> >>>> This may explain some recent happenings, but it is still disturbing, >>>nonetheless. >>>> We in infosec, and members of society as a whole, have to push >harder >>>on the >>>> ethics front. >>> >>>What does this have to do with ethics? >>>It's a trick question, think before answering. :) >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ====================== (quote inserted randomly by Pegasus Mailer) >>>> [email protected] [email protected] >>[email protected] >>>> This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I >have >> >>>> set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now >>>> choose life.... - Deuteronomy 30:19 >>>> victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htm >>>blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. >>>> https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec >>>> Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. >>>https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec >>>Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. >>https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec >>Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. _______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
