All are taught at the war college.
>-----Original Message----- >From: Gadi Evron [mailto:[email protected]] >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:26 PM >To: Tomas L. Byrnes >Cc: Alex Eckelberry; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; >[email protected]; [email protected] >Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right > >On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Tomas L. Byrnes wrote: >> The experiment is a dual one: >> >> 1: How far can someone be manipulated. >> >> 2: Are people really such sheep? >> >> My unscientific gut says that if you took the sample primarily from >the >> US Military, you'd get lots of demurs. >> >> The average Joe doesn't know what voltage is likely to hurt, or what >the >> laws of land warfare are. >> >> I think all this proves is that humans are highly influenced by their >> social environment. > >Read up on (YouTube will do): Standford Prison Experiment >Books to grab: Hogan's on cults (forgot the name), Influence by Cialdini > >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Gadi Evron [mailto:[email protected]] >>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:04 PM >>> To: Alex Eckelberry >>> Cc: Tomas L. Byrnes; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah; >>> [email protected]; [email protected] >>> Subject: RE: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right >>> >>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Alex Eckelberry wrote: >>>> True, and there is a point of ethics vs. morals. But in the end, >>>> there's a line that, IMHO, shouldn't be crossed. >>> >>> The participants themselves were manipulated. Their ethics are fine, >>> they >>> are simply not aware of what's going on or how to resist it. >>> >>> Smart people as we may be, we all treat dozens of things >automatically, >>> which can be abused. Belief in authority is one thing.. training for >>> suspended disbelief in movies is another. >>> >>> The ethical issue here is the experiment being conducted. >>> >>> >>>> Besides, at a purely ethical level, torture is a low-quality >>>> interrogation technique. It's overrated in its effectiveness, and >>>> creates boomerang effects which don't benefit an overall cause. >>>> >>>> Nevertheless, even arguing torture at a logical level is difficult >> for >>>> me. It's just reprehensible, not because of some pacificist >> ideology: >>>> Because beating the living shit out of someone for information >brings >>> us >>>> to the level of animals, and that's what we've been trying to evolve >>>> from for a very long time. >>>> >>>> Something Matthew Alexander spoke and wrote of recently: >>>> >>>> http://snipurl.com/8wosv >>>> >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] >>>> On Behalf Of Tomas L. Byrnes >>>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 8:19 PM >>>> To: Gadi Evron; Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah >>>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right >>>> >>>> I guess it depends on who you think you owe an ethical duty to, >>> doesn't >>>> it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:funsec- >>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of Gadi Evron >>>>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 4:11 PM >>>>> To: Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah >>>>> Cc: [email protected]; [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [funsec] Apparently Milgram is still right >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Rob, grandpa of Ryan, Trevor, Devon & Hannah >>>> wrote: >>>>>> People are still willing to torture people, when told to do so by >> an >>>>> authority. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/-/2/hi/health/7791278.stm >>>>>> >>>>>> This may explain some recent happenings, but it is still >> disturbing, >>>>> nonetheless. >>>>>> We in infosec, and members of society as a whole, have to push >>> harder >>>>> on the >>>>>> ethics front. >>>>> >>>>> What does this have to do with ethics? >>>>> It's a trick question, think before answering. :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ====================== (quote inserted randomly by Pegasus >Mailer) >>>>>> [email protected] [email protected] >>>> [email protected] >>>>>> This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I >>> have >>>> >>>>>> set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now >>>>>> choose life.... - Deuteronomy >> 30:19 >>>>>> victoria.tc.ca/techrev/rms.htm >>>>> blogs.securiteam.com/index.php/archives/author/p1/ >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. >>>>>> https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec >>>>>> Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. >>>>> https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec >>>>> Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. >>>> https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec >>>> Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list. >>>> >> _______________________________________________ Fun and Misc security discussion for OT posts. https://linuxbox.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/funsec Note: funsec is a public and open mailing list.
