Dear Natalia, No, I don't know with certainty that there is no "journey" after death. I am pretty sure, though thanatology is not a field that I follow, that there is no evidence at all that there is, "near-death experiences" not withstanding. Do you have any certain knowledge that there is a "journey"? If I am reading your note correctly, you imply that you do.
In the absence of ANY evidence to the contrary I choose to proceed on the assumption that there isn't a "journey", and to align my views and policies and practices with that assumption. In any case and to the point of the PBS program, the dying husband seemed entirely in possession of his mental capabilities, and quite aware of what was happening and going to happen. At each step he actively stated his desire to dir. His wife was supportive, but not in charge. So this program sheds no light on the coma situation you discuss. You hint, I think, to something that intrigues me: should others ever have the right/responsibility to plan for and in effect order someone else's death? Supposing the subject is suffering terribly but, let us say, for religious reasons unable to ask for their own death for fear, say, of "going to Hell and not being reunited with his beloved dead wife." The subject congruently states his desire to die, but for this suicide-means-you-are-going-to-Hell. Should his loving family decide that he should die, as he congruently wishes, and take the matter into their own hands, thus freeing him from the burden and, in his mind, consequence of suicide? Cheers, Lawry On Jul 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Darryl or Natalia wrote: > Hi Lawry, > > Are you stating below that you know with certainty that there is no journey > after physical death? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting. > > You also speak as though you felt this ceremony was being done solely for the > wife's (and friends) benefit, yet most couples tend to honour the > wishes/wills of their spouses, issues discussed/penned well before demise. > That the husband seemed indifferent could be the indicator that his time to > be able to react to anything was pretty well up--possibly a vegetative state, > I don't know. That people even in coma states are often aware of what's going > on around them has been proven very recently by use of PET scans. CBC did a > show on it recently, and I've posted The Associated Press Link below. > > I don't wish to throw a wrench into the Choice debate by raising the > following, as in, How do we really know if the person really wants to die? My > point is only that it's possible people are more aware of their > condition/journey/passage/dying than we may realize, and I hope that's the > case. Since it's a major event, it's best experienced with full knowledge, > and with luck, by choice if suffering unbearably. > > I believe that choice is crucial and an intrinsic right, and grieve for those > in higher numbers succumbing within morphine-induced finalities. > > Natalia > > > Man in coma conscious for decades > > 'I screamed but there was nothing to hear,' Belgian patient says > > Last Updated: Monday, November 23, 2009 | 4:50 PM ET > > The Associated Press > > Patients in a vegetative state can't think, reason, respond, do anything on > purpose, chew or swallow. (CBC) > A man who emerged from what doctors thought was a vegetative state says he > was fully conscious for 23 years but could not respond because he was > paralyzed, his mother said Monday. > > Rom Houben, 46, had a car crash in 1983 and doctors thought he had sunk into > a coma. His family continued to believe their son was conscious and sought > further medical advice. > > Professor Steven Laureys of Belgium's Coma Science Group realized that the > diagnosis was wrong and taught Houben how to communicate through a special > keyboard, said Dr. Audrey Vanhaudenhuyse, who is on Laureys' team. > > Rom used the device to tell a reporter for the German magazine Der Spiegel > that: "I screamed but there was nothing to hear." > > Belgian doctors who treated him early on said that Rom had gone from a coma > into a vegetative condition. > > Coma is a state of unconsciousness in which the eyes are closed and the > patient can't be roused, as if simply asleep. > > Vegetative state is a condition in which the eyes are open and can move, and > the patient has periods of sleep and periods of wakefulness, but remains > unconscious and unaware of him or herself or others. The patient can't think, > reason, respond, do anything on purpose, chew or swallow. > > But Rom's parents would not accept that he was comatose or vegetative. > > Indicating yes or no > > His mother, Fina Houben, said in a telephone interview that they took him > five times to the United States for tests. > > More searching finally got her in touch with Laureys, who put Houben through > a PET scan that indicated he was conscious. The family and doctors then began > trying to establish communication. > > An advance came when he was able to indicate yes or no by slightly moving his > foot to push a computer device placed there by Laureys' team. Then came the > spelling of words using his finger and a touch-screen attached to his > wheelchair. > > "You have to imagine yourself lying in bed wanting to speak and move but > unable to do so — while in your head you are OK," Vanhaudenhuyse said. "It > was extremely difficult for him and he showed a lot of anger, which is normal > since he was very frustrated," she said. > > The case came to light after Laureys published a study in the journal BMC > Neurology this year showing that about four out of 10 patients with > consciousness disorders are wrongly diagnosed as being a vegetative state. > Houben, although not specifically mentioned, was part of the study. > > Houben has started writing a book on his experiences. > > > Read more: > http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/23/coma-recovery-belgium.html#ixzz0uQs3yo4q > > > > > > Lawrence de Bivort wrote: >> >> The program (PBS?) on the Swiss facility showed that the people there were >> using the metaphor of a "journey" -- death was simply the next stage. It >> seemed pretty hokey to me, but the dying man's wife seemed to take comfort >> from the metaphor. I didn't get the impression that the guy cared. >> >> As long as we need and use metaphors there will be something deceptive about >> the whole process, I think. Am I being to harsh? >> >> Friends in a little, religious, and poor town in Colorado threw a farewell >> bash for the dying man, and then after they left he took poisons. I was told >> that everyone knew what was going to happen, and they all thought it was the >> right decision, and were glad that their friend had not only the choice but >> the moral ability to implement it. >> >> Cheers, >> Lawry >> >> >> On Jul 21, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Ed Weick wrote: >> >>> The movie Soylent Green has a passage about this kind of thing. When they >>> are ready to die and leave the abysmal place the world has become, people >>> can go to a place in which they are put onto a comfortable stretcher and >>> wheeled into theater. They are then given chemicals that will make them >>> close down. As they are doing so, beautiful music is played (parts of >>> Beethoven's Pastoral in the movie) and scenes of deer in pastures and >>> bounding through woods are projected onto a large screen above them. What >>> a way to go! >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Lawrence de Bivort >>> To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION >>> Cc: 'Keith Hudson' >>> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:31 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Futurework] Here's to mental health at 90! >>> >>> >>> Agreed, Keith, Though I don't know about the bludgeoning! More and more, >>> people seem less fearful of death. Perhaps that fear was derived from the >>> religiously promoted threats of heaven and hell? My sense is that many >>> people have attained such a level of quality in their lives that losing >>> much of that quality in the face of the infirmities of age is unacceptable. >>> And with our longer live-spans it may be easier to conclude that one has >>> led a good life and that it is time to wrap it up. Some of my friends talk >>> about pacts among themselves to make sure that their last days are not >>> spent in hopeless agony. Going to a service in Switzerland may be the best >>> option now -- though a program I saw about it some time ago made it seem >>> too austere for my tastes -- is an expensive option and like so much else, >>> the virtues of 'grow and buy local' may extend themselves to this >>> end-of-life realm. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Lawry >>> >>> >>>> Arthur, >>>> >>>> >>>> Over here the idea of euthanasia is proceeding far faster than I would >>>> have expected even as recently as a year or two ago. My partner and I have >>>> both signed a legal Advance Notices (requesting non-resuscitation in case >>>> of severe debilitation, etc), and there are increasing numbers of press >>>> stories about individuals (usually the totally paralysed with locked-in >>>> minds who can only communicate by blinking) who want to be sent on their >>>> way, retired doctors who confess to mercy killings when they practised, >>>> and there's a growing stream of people leaving for the clinic in >>>> Switzerland that does this thing. >>>> >>>> I think that well within 20 years -- when there'll be huge numbers of the >>>> old -- we'll see voluntary euthanasia on a large scale. I think we'll >>>> start to see a lot more involuntary euthanasia than already goes on in our >>>> nursing homes. My guess is that, already, hundreds, if not thousands, of >>>> cases go on every year that are never revealed. >>>> >>>> As recently as 200 years ago when Scandinavian families in the far north >>>> had had a bad summer and insufficient food to see them through the winter >>>> if they had an aged parent on board, they would hold a ceremony (usually >>>> on a particular family rock) whereby the ancient was clubbed to death >>>> (with their permission). Once we get this Christian thing about souls and >>>> so forth out of our head then euthanasia of anybody who's become a severe >>>> economic drain will become culturally acceptable. It will take generations >>>> but, I think, inevitable. It seems terribly shocking to us now but it will >>>> be normal then. >>>> >>>> Keith >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Futurework mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Futurework mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Futurework mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >> >> >> >> >> --- >> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. >> Virus Database (VPS): 100721-0, 07/21/2010 >> Tested on: 7/21/2010 12:18:48 PM >> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 AVAST Software. >> http://www.avast.com >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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