Wow! Is this because we are getting old or is it theoretical or what? Cosmology has brought all of this back to the fore because we can generally keep our environment stable. However the current economic situation with all of the self-serving theories should put a lie to even that.
I vote for Frank Herbert's version (The Heavenmakers) where he says that there are these guys out in the Universe who have constructed a reality that they can manipulate by turning the clock back and forth. They start a story and then bet on the outcome. Their universe looks like the modern opera house where you have the moles underneath working to provide the manipulation required by the wealthy who sit around the balconies and applaud. Those moles are called the orchestra and their foreman the conductor. Some of the more well heeled betters will elect to sit in the Orchestra for a more upfront personal view of the action. The humans are on the stage and believe that they have free will even though the music controls their time and their every move. REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Darryl or Natalia Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:13 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Here's to mental health at 90! No, you are interpreting incorrectly. Though I may believe in an afterlife, I would never state that it is fact, despite ample anecdotal evidence. Even despite most recent quantum physics research pointing in the direction of ancient Vedic understanding that consciousness creates physiology, would I state it as fact. Excitement, certainly. But you said below that you found use of the journey theme hokey, deceptive, metaphorically regnant, and that the husband looked as though he didn't care. Now, you're saying he was entirely aware and lucid. I brought up the coma bit to suggest that perhaps the audience was unaware of a possible state of awareness--because of how you'd first described his indifference. The program (PBS?) on the Swiss facility showed that the people there were using the metaphor of a "journey" -- death was simply the next stage. It seemed pretty hokey to me, but the dying man's wife seemed to take comfort from the metaphor. I didn't get the impression that the guy cared. As long as we need and use metaphors there will be something deceptive about the whole process, I think. Am I being to harsh? (Harsh? Yes. Mocking.traditions/ceremonies that lend dignity to the dying patient.) Belief, when based in informed decision, is also choice, and choosing to believe that mind/consciousness cannot die is a choice for happiness, and people are healthier and happier for it, and it harms no one in this light. When the belief is merely memetic, imparted on the domestic front, incorporated into every aspect of one's society, and fear of "sin" guides your decisions, then there really isn't much choice. One will only recite by rote what reality is. Which leads to your latest query of my position on who might become the decider in your imagined scenario.... I believe the example you cite would be one of murder. The sufferer has made his choice based on his perception of reality, despite desire of death to alleviate suffering, and would consider the allegedly merciful action murder nonetheless. He has no other theological or spiritual foundation to guide him, so what can you do? Respect his beliefs because they will have great bearing on why he thinks he should suffer. Further, presuming it's possible that after death one goes initially to whatever version of heaven or hell your belief system has shaped, then this guy will find himself going to hell, and that his family will soon follow. We have no way of knowing how long a purgatory could be--again, if that's true. Even if altogether false, there's the actual moment in which said victim would experience a profound personal negation of his entire life and soul for this act, however unfounded this may be. Not acceptable. Even if they did this while he was sleeping, he has voiced his choice. It might work out, however, if the guy thought his wife went to hell. How 'bout you on the above? Natalia Lawrence de Bivort wrote: Dear Natalia, No, I don't know with certainty that there is no "journey" after death. I am pretty sure, though thanatology is not a field that I follow, that there is no evidence at all that there is, "near-death experiences" not withstanding. Do you have any certain knowledge that there is a "journey"? If I am reading your note correctly, you imply that you do. In the absence of ANY evidence to the contrary I choose to proceed on the assumption that there isn't a "journey", and to align my views and policies and practices with that assumption. In any case and to the point of the PBS program, the dying husband seemed entirely in possession of his mental capabilities, and quite aware of what was happening and going to happen. At each step he actively stated his desire to dir. His wife was supportive, but not in charge. So this program sheds no light on the coma situation you discuss. You hint, I think, to something that intrigues me: should others ever have the right/responsibility to plan for and in effect order someone else's death? Supposing the subject is suffering terribly but, let us say, for religious reasons unable to ask for their own death for fear, say, of "going to Hell and not being reunited with his beloved dead wife." The subject congruently states his desire to die, but for this suicide-means-you-are-going-to-Hell. Should his loving family decide that he should die, as he congruently wishes, and take the matter into their own hands, thus freeing him from the burden and, in his mind, consequence of suicide? Cheers, Lawry On Jul 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Darryl or Natalia wrote: Hi Lawry, Are you stating below that you know with certainty that there is no journey after physical death? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting. You also speak as though you felt this ceremony was being done solely for the wife's (and friends) benefit, yet most couples tend to honour the wishes/wills of their spouses, issues discussed/penned well before demise. That the husband seemed indifferent could be the indicator that his time to be able to react to anything was pretty well up--possibly a vegetative state, I don't know. That people even in coma states are often aware of what's going on around them has been proven very recently by use of PET scans. CBC did a show on it recently, and I've posted The Associated Press Link below. I don't wish to throw a wrench into the Choice debate by raising the following, as in, How do we really know if the person really wants to die? My point is only that it's possible people are more aware of their condition/journey/passage/dying than we may realize, and I hope that's the case. Since it's a major event, it's best experienced with full knowledge, and with luck, by choice if suffering unbearably. I believe that choice is crucial and an intrinsic right, and grieve for those in higher numbers succumbing within morphine-induced finalities. Natalia Man in coma conscious for decades 'I screamed but there was nothing to hear,' Belgian patient says Last Updated: Monday, November 23, 2009 | 4:50 PM ET The Associated Press Patients in a vegetative state can't think, reason, respond, do anything on purpose, chew or swallow. (CBC) A man who emerged from what doctors thought was a vegetative state says he was fully conscious for 23 years but could not respond because he was paralyzed, his mother said Monday. Rom Houben, 46, had a car crash in 1983 and doctors thought he had sunk into a coma. His family continued to believe their son was conscious and sought further medical advice. Professor Steven Laureys of Belgium's Coma Science Group realized that the diagnosis was wrong and taught Houben how to communicate through a special keyboard, said Dr. Audrey Vanhaudenhuyse, who is on Laureys' team. Rom used the device to tell a reporter for the German magazine Der Spiegel that: "I screamed but there was nothing to hear." Belgian doctors who treated him early on said that Rom had gone from a coma into a vegetative condition. Coma is a state of unconsciousness in which the eyes are closed and the patient can't be roused, as if simply asleep. Vegetative state is a condition in which the eyes are open and can move, and the patient has periods of sleep and periods of wakefulness, but remains unconscious and unaware of him or herself or others. The patient can't think, reason, respond, do anything on purpose, chew or swallow. But Rom's parents would not accept that he was comatose or vegetative. Indicating yes or no His mother, Fina Houben, said in a telephone interview that they took him five times to the United States for tests. More searching finally got her in touch with Laureys, who put Houben through a PET scan that indicated he was conscious. The family and doctors then began trying to establish communication. An advance came when he was able to indicate yes or no by slightly moving his foot to push a computer device placed there by Laureys' team. Then came the spelling of words using his finger and a touch-screen attached to his wheelchair. "You have to imagine yourself lying in bed wanting to speak and move but unable to do so - while in your head you are OK," Vanhaudenhuyse said. "It was extremely difficult for him and he showed a lot of anger, which is normal since he was very frustrated," she said. The case came to light after Laureys published a study in the journal BMC Neurology this year showing that about four out of 10 patients with consciousness disorders are wrongly diagnosed as being a vegetative state. Houben, although not specifically mentioned, was part of the study. Houben has started writing a book on his experiences. Read more: <http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/23/coma-recovery-belgium.html#ixzz0u Qs3yo4q> http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/23/coma-recovery-belgium.html#ixzz0uQ s3yo4q Lawrence de Bivort wrote: The program (PBS?) on the Swiss facility showed that the people there were using the metaphor of a "journey" -- death was simply the next stage. It seemed pretty hokey to me, but the dying man's wife seemed to take comfort from the metaphor. I didn't get the impression that the guy cared. As long as we need and use metaphors there will be something deceptive about the whole process, I think. Am I being to harsh? Friends in a little, religious, and poor town in Colorado threw a farewell bash for the dying man, and then after they left he took poisons. I was told that everyone knew what was going to happen, and they all thought it was the right decision, and were glad that their friend had not only the choice but the moral ability to implement it. Cheers, Lawry On Jul 21, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Ed Weick wrote: The movie Soylent Green has a passage about this kind of thing. When they are ready to die and leave the abysmal place the world has become, people can go to a place in which they are put onto a comfortable stretcher and wheeled into theater. They are then given chemicals that will make them close down. As they are doing so, beautiful music is played (parts of Beethoven's Pastoral in the movie) and scenes of deer in pastures and bounding through woods are projected onto a large screen above them. What a way to go! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence de Bivort <mailto:[email protected]> To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME <mailto:[email protected]> DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION Cc: 'Keith <mailto:[email protected]> Hudson' Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Here's to mental health at 90! Agreed, Keith, Though I don't know about the bludgeoning! More and more, people seem less fearful of death. Perhaps that fear was derived from the religiously promoted threats of heaven and hell? My sense is that many people have attained such a level of quality in their lives that losing much of that quality in the face of the infirmities of age is unacceptable. And with our longer live-spans it may be easier to conclude that one has led a good life and that it is time to wrap it up. Some of my friends talk about pacts among themselves to make sure that their last days are not spent in hopeless agony. Going to a service in Switzerland may be the best option now -- though a program I saw about it some time ago made it seem too austere for my tastes -- is an expensive option and like so much else, the virtues of 'grow and buy local' may extend themselves to this end-of-life realm. Cheers, Lawry Arthur, Over here the idea of euthanasia is proceeding far faster than I would have expected even as recently as a year or two ago. My partner and I have both signed a legal Advance Notices (requesting non-resuscitation in case of severe debilitation, etc), and there are increasing numbers of press stories about individuals (usually the totally paralysed with locked-in minds who can only communicate by blinking) who want to be sent on their way, retired doctors who confess to mercy killings when they practised, and there's a growing stream of people leaving for the clinic in Switzerland that does this thing. I think that well within 20 years -- when there'll be huge numbers of the old -- we'll see voluntary euthanasia on a large scale. I think we'll start to see a lot more involuntary euthanasia than already goes on in our nursing homes. My guess is that, already, hundreds, if not thousands, of cases go on every year that are never revealed. As recently as 200 years ago when Scandinavian families in the far north had had a bad summer and insufficient food to see them through the winter if they had an aged parent on board, they would hold a ceremony (usually on a particular family rock) whereby the ancient was clubbed to death (with their permission). Once we get this Christian thing about souls and so forth out of our head then euthanasia of anybody who's become a severe economic drain will become culturally acceptable. It will take generations but, I think, inevitable. It seems terribly shocking to us now but it will be normal then. 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