This is all very interesting. Anybody care to speculate what it has to do with "redesigning work, income distribution and eduction"?
On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:05 PM, Ray Harrell <[email protected]> wrote: > Wow! Is this because we are getting old or is it theoretical or what? > Cosmology has brought all of this back to the fore because we can generally > keep our environment stable. However the current economic situation with > all of the self-serving theories should put a lie to even that. > > > > I vote for Frank Herbert’s version (The Heavenmakers) where he says that > there are these guys out in the Universe who have constructed a reality that > they can manipulate by turning the clock back and forth. They start a > story and then bet on the outcome. Their universe looks like the modern > opera house where you have the moles underneath working to provide the > manipulation required by the wealthy who sit around the balconies and > applaud. Those moles are called the orchestra and their foreman the > conductor. Some of the more well heeled betters will elect to sit in > the Orchestra for a more upfront personal view of the action. The humans > are on the stage and believe that they have free will even though the music > controls their time and their every move. > > > > REH > > > > > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Darryl or > Natalia > Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:13 PM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Here's to mental health at 90! > > > > No, you are interpreting incorrectly. Though I may believe in an afterlife, > I would never state that it is fact, despite ample anecdotal evidence. Even > despite most recent quantum physics research pointing in the direction of > ancient Vedic understanding that consciousness creates physiology, would I > state it as fact. Excitement, certainly. But you said below that you found > use of the journey theme hokey, deceptive, metaphorically regnant, and that > the husband looked as though he didn't care. Now, you're saying he was > entirely aware and lucid. I brought up the coma bit to suggest that perhaps > the audience was unaware of a possible state of awareness--because of how > you'd first described his indifference. > > The program (PBS?) on the Swiss facility showed that the people there were > using the metaphor of a "journey" -- death was simply the next stage. It > seemed pretty hokey to me, but the dying man's wife seemed to take comfort > from the metaphor. I didn't get the impression that the guy cared. > > > > As long as we need and use metaphors there will be something deceptive about > the whole process, I think. Am I being to harsh? > > > > (Harsh? Yes. Mocking.traditions/ceremonies that lend dignity to the dying > patient.) > > Belief, when based in informed decision, is also choice, and choosing to > believe that mind/consciousness cannot die is a choice for happiness, and > people are healthier and happier for it, and it harms no one in this light. > When the belief is merely memetic, imparted on the domestic front, > incorporated into every aspect of one's society, and fear of "sin" guides > your decisions, then there really isn't much choice. One will only recite by > rote what reality is. Which leads to your latest query of my position on who > might become the decider in your imagined scenario.... > > I believe the example you cite would be one of murder. The sufferer has made > his choice based on his perception of reality, despite desire of death to > alleviate suffering, and would consider the allegedly merciful action murder > nonetheless. He has no other theological or spiritual foundation to guide > him, so what can you do? Respect his beliefs because they will have great > bearing on why he thinks he should suffer. Further, presuming it's possible > that after death one goes initially to whatever version of heaven or hell > your belief system has shaped, then this guy will find himself going to > hell, and that his family will soon follow. We have no way of knowing how > long a purgatory could be--again, if that's true. Even if altogether false, > there's the actual moment in which said victim would experience a profound > personal negation of his entire life and soul for this act, however > unfounded this may be. Not acceptable. Even if they did this while he was > sleeping, he has voiced his choice. It might work out, however, if the guy > thought his wife went to hell. > > How 'bout you on the above? > Natalia > > > Lawrence de Bivort wrote: > > Dear Natalia, > > > > No, I don't know with certainty that there is no "journey" after death. I > am pretty sure, though thanatology is not a field that I follow, that there > is no evidence at all that there is, "near-death experiences" not > withstanding. Do you have any certain knowledge that there is a "journey"? > If I am reading your note correctly, you imply that you do. > > > > In the absence of ANY evidence to the contrary I choose to proceed on the > assumption that there isn't a "journey", and to align my views and policies > and practices with that assumption. > > > > In any case and to the point of the PBS program, the dying husband seemed > entirely in possession of his mental capabilities, and quite aware of what > was happening and going to happen. At each step he actively stated his > desire to dir. His wife was supportive, but not in charge. So this program > sheds no light on the coma situation you discuss. > > > > You hint, I think, to something that intrigues me: should others ever have > the right/responsibility to plan for and in effect order someone else's > death? Supposing the subject is suffering terribly but, let us say, for > religious reasons unable to ask for their own death for fear, say, of "going > to Hell and not being reunited with his beloved dead wife." The subject > congruently states his desire to die, but for this > suicide-means-you-are-going-to-Hell. Should his loving family decide that he > should die, as he congruently wishes, and take the matter into their own > hands, thus freeing him from the burden and, in his mind, consequence of > suicide? > > > > Cheers, > > Lawry > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Darryl or Natalia wrote: > > Hi Lawry, > > Are you stating below that you know with certainty that there is no journey > after physical death? Perhaps I'm misinterpreting. > > You also speak as though you felt this ceremony was being done solely for > the wife's (and friends) benefit, yet most couples tend to honour the > wishes/wills of their spouses, issues discussed/penned well before demise. > That the husband seemed indifferent could be the indicator that his time to > be able to react to anything was pretty well up--possibly a vegetative > state, I don't know. That people even in coma states are often aware of > what's going on around them has been proven very recently by use of PET > scans. CBC did a show on it recently, and I've posted The Associated Press > Link below. > > I don't wish to throw a wrench into the Choice debate by raising the > following, as in, How do we really know if the person really wants to die? > My point is only that it's possible people are more aware of their > condition/journey/passage/dying than we may realize, and I hope that's the > case. Since it's a major event, it's best experienced with full knowledge, > and with luck, by choice if suffering unbearably. > > I believe that choice is crucial and an intrinsic right, and grieve for > those in higher numbers succumbing within morphine-induced finalities. > > Natalia > > Man in coma conscious for decades > > 'I screamed but there was nothing to hear,' Belgian patient says > > Last Updated: Monday, November 23, 2009 | 4:50 PM ET > > The Associated Press > > Patients in a vegetative state can't think, reason, respond, do anything on > purpose, chew or swallow. (CBC) > > A man who emerged from what doctors thought was a vegetative state says he > was fully conscious for 23 years but could not respond because he was > paralyzed, his mother said Monday. > > Rom Houben, 46, had a car crash in 1983 and doctors thought he had sunk into > a coma. His family continued to believe their son was conscious and sought > further medical advice. > > Professor Steven Laureys of Belgium's Coma Science Group realized that the > diagnosis was wrong and taught Houben how to communicate through a special > keyboard, said Dr. Audrey Vanhaudenhuyse, who is on Laureys' team. > > Rom used the device to tell a reporter for the German magazine Der Spiegel > that: "I screamed but there was nothing to hear." > > Belgian doctors who treated him early on said that Rom had gone from a coma > into a vegetative condition. > > Coma is a state of unconsciousness in which the eyes are closed and the > patient can't be roused, as if simply asleep. > > Vegetative state is a condition in which the eyes are open and can move, and > the patient has periods of sleep and periods of wakefulness, but remains > unconscious and unaware of him or herself or others. The patient can't > think, reason, respond, do anything on purpose, chew or swallow. > > But Rom's parents would not accept that he was comatose or vegetative. > > Indicating yes or no > > His mother, Fina Houben, said in a telephone interview that they took him > five times to the United States for tests. > > More searching finally got her in touch with Laureys, who put Houben through > a PET scan that indicated he was conscious. The family and doctors then > began trying to establish communication. > > An advance came when he was able to indicate yes or no by slightly moving > his foot to push a computer device placed there by Laureys' team. Then came > the spelling of words using his finger and a touch-screen attached to his > wheelchair. > > "You have to imagine yourself lying in bed wanting to speak and move but > unable to do so — while in your head you are OK," Vanhaudenhuyse said. "It > was extremely difficult for him and he showed a lot of anger, which is > normal since he was very frustrated," she said. > > The case came to light after Laureys published a study in the journal BMC > Neurology this year showing that about four out of 10 patients with > consciousness disorders are wrongly diagnosed as being a vegetative state. > Houben, although not specifically mentioned, was part of the study. > > Houben has started writing a book on his experiences. > > Read more: > http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/23/coma-recovery-belgium.html#ixzz0uQs3yo4q > > > > > > Lawrence de Bivort wrote: > > The program (PBS?) on the Swiss facility showed that the people there were > using the metaphor of a "journey" -- death was simply the next stage. It > seemed pretty hokey to me, but the dying man's wife seemed to take comfort > from the metaphor. I didn't get the impression that the guy cared. > > > > As long as we need and use metaphors there will be something deceptive about > the whole process, I think. Am I being to harsh? > > > > Friends in a little, religious, and poor town in Colorado threw a farewell > bash for the dying man, and then after they left he took poisons. I was told > that everyone knew what was going to happen, and they all thought it was the > right decision, and were glad that their friend had not only the choice but > the moral ability to implement it. > > > > Cheers, > > Lawry > > > > > > On Jul 21, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Ed Weick wrote: > > The movie Soylent Green has a passage about this kind of thing. When they > are ready to die and leave the abysmal place the world has become, people > can go to a place in which they are put onto a comfortable stretcher and > wheeled into theater. They are then given chemicals that will make them > close down. As they are doing so, beautiful music is played (parts of > Beethoven's Pastoral in the movie) and scenes of deer in pastures and > bounding through woods are projected onto a large screen above them. What a > way to go! > > > > Ed > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Lawrence de Bivort > > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION,EDUCATION > > Cc: 'Keith Hudson' > > Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 9:31 AM > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Here's to mental health at 90! > > > > > > Agreed, Keith, Though I don't know about the bludgeoning! More and more, > people seem less fearful of death. Perhaps that fear was derived from the > religiously promoted threats of heaven and hell? My sense is that many > people have attained such a level of quality in their lives that losing much > of that quality in the face of the infirmities of age is unacceptable. And > with our longer live-spans it may be easier to conclude that one has led a > good life and that it is time to wrap it up. Some of my friends talk about > pacts among themselves to make sure that their last days are not spent in > hopeless agony. Going to a service in Switzerland may be the best option now > -- though a program I saw about it some time ago made it seem too austere > for my tastes -- is an expensive option and like so much else, the virtues > of 'grow and buy local' may extend themselves to this end-of-life realm. > > > > Cheers, > > Lawry > > > > Arthur, > > Over here the idea of euthanasia is proceeding far faster than I would have > expected even as recently as a year or two ago. My partner and I have both > signed a legal Advance Notices (requesting non-resuscitation in case of > severe debilitation, etc), and there are increasing numbers of press stories > about individuals (usually the totally paralysed with locked-in minds who > can only communicate by blinking) who want to be sent on their way, retired > doctors who confess to mercy killings when they practised, and there's a > growing stream of people leaving for the clinic in Switzerland that does > this thing. > > I think that well within 20 years -- when there'll be huge numbers of the > old -- we'll see voluntary euthanasia on a large scale. I think we'll start > to see a lot more involuntary euthanasia than already goes on in our nursing > homes. My guess is that, already, hundreds, if not thousands, of cases go on > every year that are never revealed. > > As recently as 200 years ago when Scandinavian families in the far north had > had a bad summer and insufficient food to see them through the winter if > they had an aged parent on board, they would hold a ceremony (usually on a > particular family rock) whereby the ancient was clubbed to death (with their > permission). Once we get this Christian thing about souls and so forth out > of our head then euthanasia of anybody who's become a severe economic drain > will become culturally acceptable. It will take generations but, I think, > inevitable. It seems terribly shocking to us now but it will be normal then. > > Keith > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > ________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > --- > > avast! 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