Hi, Viggo, Yes, the occupation regime puts many obstacles int he way of couples who want to marry in Israel/Palestine, and even between Palestinians who are living within the boundary of Israel, and those living on the West Bank or Gaza. (A wonderful movie: THE SYRIAN BRIDE who are curious about one way in which it works (and in which good people from all sides make it work.) But love has a way, and the obstacle are often surmounted with tenacity and patience.
Cheers, Lawry On Aug 6, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Viggo Andersen wrote: > Lawry, as to "Or an interpersonal level, Israelis and Palestinians (and > Arabs/Muslims) generally can get along fairly easily. Indeed I know of many > deep and lasting friendships between them, including marriages." > > Where have they settled down, married couples? I have a YouTube > video about Israeli/Palestinian couple Jasmin Avissar and Osama > Zatar from November 2008, German tv. They had to move to Germany > to be able to live together. I also know about groups in Israel > of psychologists or what they were doing "intervention" actions > to "save" Israeli girls from their Palestinian boyfriends. > > Viggo. > > At 08:25 06-08-2012 -0400, de Bivort Lawrence wrote: >> Good morning, Keith. Yes, Muslims view Jews, Christians (broadly defined) >> and Muslims all as "Ahl al-Kitab" -- People of the Book. All the early >> converts to Islam were, of course, Jewish, Christian, or pan- and >> polytheistic. Converting to Islam was not difficult for Jews and Christians, >> as they and Muslims have the same god. So conversion simply meant >> understanding that Muhammad was the most recent of the prophets/messengers/ >> sent by God/Yahweh/Allah, and taking the Qur'an as the last and literal >> message/voice of Allah. If you will, you can think of Muhammad and the >> Quran as the 'latest edition.' >> >> Would you say more about the effect of Sunni-Shi'a tension on >> Muslim-non-Muslim relations? Thanks. >> >> My sense is, and this summarizes many disparate conversations with >> Arabs/Muslims about Israel, is not that Israeli technological and scientific >> success provokes them against Israel, but that the seizure of Palestine; the >> current onerous and murderous occupation; the Israeli black ops against >> Arabs and Muslim countries; and the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars are the cause >> of such anger at Israel. >> >> Israel's technological succes is something that many Palestinians, Arabs and >> Muslims admire, though the relative debauchery of some segments of the >> Israeli Jewish population do not. Of course, the Arabs have their own >> record of world-class debauchery among some of their elites -- a source of >> considerable resentment and contempt among the general population. >> >> Or an interpersonal level, Israelis and Palestinians (and Arabs/Muslims) >> generally can get along fairly easily. Indeed I know of many deep and >> lasting friendships between them, including marriages. >> >> Cheers, >> Lawry >> >> >> On Aug 6, 2012, at 7:11 AM, Keith Hudson wrote: >> >>> Muhammad enjoined his followers to treat Jews and Christians with respect, >>> as fellow believers in the Bible (that is, the old testament) and partners >>> of the Abrahamic line. What has coloured Muslim's attitude to non-Muslims >>> is a byproduct of the growing overlay of antipathy between the Sunnis and >>> Shias of their own faith. Also, I feel sure that the scientific and >>> technological successes of Israel in recent years, rather than its mere >>> existence, have been provocative. >>> >>> Keith >>> >>> At 20:53 05/08/2012, Arthur wrote: >>>> Just to provide some more perspective on the very unstable middle east. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Israel, the Arab world’s all-purpose enemy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/author/gjonasnp/>George Jonas | >>>> >>>> Aug 4, 2012 6:01 AM ET | >>>> >>>> Last Updated: Aug 4, 2012 9:48 AM ET >>>> >>>> National Post >>>> >>>> And how is the Arab Spring? Well, there’s bad news, and good news. The bad >>>> news is that since the beginning of the phenomenon that has been discussed >>>> more and understood less than any in recent years, hostility to Israel in >>>> the region has only increased. The good news is that while the appetite to >>>> harm the Jewish state and its inhabitants has grown in the Arab/Muslim >>>> world since the fall of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia launched what >>>> was supposed to be the region’s democratic renewal, the capacity to do so >>>> has diminished. >>>> >>>> An increase in hostility was predictable. Hatred against Israel, kept on a >>>> low boil, is the organizing principle of the Middle East. It’s the >>>> region’s main fuel of governance; often its only fuel. Some ruling regimes >>>> kings, dictators, whatever may have oil wells and sandy beaches, but >>>> other than hating Israel (and looking after their families and tribes) >>>> they have few if any ideas. If they do, chances are it’s to hate some >>>> other group in addition to Israel. >>>> >>>> In the Middle East a country’s national purpose often amounts to little >>>> more than a list of its enemies. A feeling of being ill-done by dominates >>>> the consciousness of groups and individuals. Since it’s a self-fulfilling >>>> prophecy, it’s not necessarily baseless: The easiest way to have an enemy >>>> is to be one. >>>> >>>> The centrality of hatred to the culture is remarkable. The Cartesian idea >>>> is “I hate, therefore I am.” Self-righteousness is overwhelming: each >>>> desire thwarted becomes an example of justice denied. It’s not a pretty >>>> place, but millions call it home. >>>> >>>> In many ways, Israel is a godsend to the one-trick ponies who rule the >>>> region. Their culture defines “ruling” as inoculating your own sect or >>>> tribe against all others, including the ones that form your own country. >>>> Many Middle East nations Iraq, Syria, Libya, to name three are just >>>> temporarily halted civil wars. They’re truces rather than countries. >>>> Canada may be “two solitudes,” but it isn’t an uneasy truce between French >>>> and English Canadians. Iraq is, between Shia and Sunni Muslims. >>>> >>>> In such an ambiance, nothing is handier than an all-purpose enemy, just >>>> out of reach, close enough to seem a realistic threat but too far to be >>>> one. Tyrants can govern by whipping up enough popular sentiment against >>>> the Jewish state to give their regimes an apparent national purpose and >>>> distract people’s attention from domestic woes, then relax and spend some >>>> money in the capitals of Europe. >>>> >>>> The key is a low boil, though. If the anti-Israeli sentiment boils over, >>>> causing riots against the government for being too soft on the Zionists, >>>> or foolish attempts to attack Haifa with rockets, which in turn invites >>>> retaliation, the people’s hatred of Israel becomes a headache for the very >>>> rulers who instigated it. >>>> >>>> “Yeah, well, it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch,” somebody might say, >>>> “I’ll lose no sleep over it.” He should, though, because it’s like pulling >>>> a thread from a piece of fabric. Things can unravel in an instant. >>>> >>>> Tyranny, Egyptian-style, under Hosni Mubarak or Libyan-style, under >>>> Muammar Gaddafi, often manifested itself in dictatorial governments >>>> balancing on a tightrope, trying to maintain a fragile peace with Israel >>>> against their own bellicose people, trying to counteract the effects of >>>> the sentiments they themselves instigated. When they couldn’t, the forces >>>> they helped conjure up turned against them. If lucky, they died in a hail >>>> of bullets on the reviewing stand like Anwar Sadat; if not, bludgeoned >>>> like a cornered rat in a culvert, in the manner of Gaddafi. It’s a fate >>>> Bashar al-Assad has been trying to avoid, which is hardly surprising. >>>> >>>> Assad “has threatened to rain missiles down on Tel Aviv should NATO try to >>>> dislodge him,” as >>>> <http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/how-the-arab-spring-keeps-israel-safe-7268>Michael >>>> Koplow put it in the National Interest, but in fact Syria’s tyrant has >>>> been raining missiles (and if not missiles, then shells and bullets) on >>>> his own towns and villages. No wonder, for that’s where his enemies live >>>> his actual enemies, as opposed to his mythical ones. It’s his fellow >>>> Syrians who want to trap him in a culvert and drown him, preferably along >>>> with his entire tribe. Israel has no interest in touching him with a >>>> 10-foot pole, especially as long as he’s keeping Syria’s armed forces and >>>> rebels thinning each other’s ranks. >>>> >>>> We won’t understand much about the Arab Spring as long as we persist in >>>> looking at it through Western eyes. We see popular uprisings against >>>> dictatorships as moves in the direction of Western-style democracy. If >>>> they happened here, they probably would be. Where they’re actually >>>> happening they’re taking their societies in the opposite direction. >>>> >>>> The Arab Spring is an attempt to return the region to its roots. It’s not >>>> to Westernize the Middle East and make it more democratic; it’s to >>>> Easternize it and make it more Islamic. If the early 20th century was >>>> about the East trying to join what it couldn’t lick, the early 21st may be >>>> about the East trying to lick what it hasn’t been able to join. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Futurework mailing list >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] >>>> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >>> >>> Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Futurework mailing list >>> <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] >>> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Futurework mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
