It is not a matter of "views," it is a matter of facts. To your statement and your language: please tell us what Arab armies were "massed" and provoked the 1948 and 1956 war.
On Aug 6, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Arthur Cordell wrote: > We have been through this before. You have your views and I have mine. > > Arthur > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 10:26 AM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the > Middle East > > Please tell us what Arab armies were "massed" and provoked the 1948 and 1956 > war. > > Then we'll address the 1967 war. > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Cordell wrote: > > > Re: the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars being the cause of such anger at Israel. I > think rather than the wars it was because the massed Arab nations that > provoked the wars ended up losing. It was the loss on the battlefield and > the loss of face that continues to rankle. But there are other currents at > work in the ME, and it is the reaction to modernism. And this is also seen > in Israel with the strength of the religious groups. > > If Israel disappears it will be a short term victory, the fight against > modernism will continue. > > arthur > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:25 AM > To: Keith Hudson; RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the > Middle East > > Good morning, Keith. Yes, Muslims view Jews, Christians (broadly defined) > and Muslims all as "Ahl al-Kitab" -- People of the Book. All the early > converts to Islam were, of course, Jewish, Christian, or pan- and > polytheistic. Converting to Islam was not difficult for Jews and Christians, > as they and Muslims have the same god. So conversion simply meant > understanding that Muhammad was the most recent of the prophets/messengers/ > sent by God/Yahweh/Allah, and taking the Qur'an as the last and literal > message/voice of Allah. If you will, you can think of Muhammad and the Quran > as the 'latest edition.' > > Would you say more about the effect of Sunni-Shi'a tension on > Muslim-non-Muslim relations? Thanks. > > My sense is, and this summarizes many disparate conversations with > Arabs/Muslims about Israel, is not that Israeli technological and scientific > success provokes them against Israel, but that the seizure of Palestine; the > current onerous and murderous occupation; the Israeli black ops against Arabs > and Muslim countries; and the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars are the cause of such > anger at Israel. > > Israel's technological succes is something that many Palestinians, Arabs and > Muslims admire, though the relative debauchery of some segments of the > Israeli Jewish population do not. Of course, the Arabs have their own record > of world-class debauchery among some of their elites -- a source of > considerable resentment and contempt among the general population. > > Or an interpersonal level, Israelis and Palestinians (and Arabs/Muslims) > generally can get along fairly easily. Indeed I know of many deep and lasting > friendships between them, including marriages. > > Cheers, > Lawry > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 7:11 AM, Keith Hudson wrote: > > > > Muhammad enjoined his followers to treat Jews and Christians with respect, as > fellow believers in the Bible (that is, the old testament) and partners of > the Abrahamic line. What has coloured Muslim's attitude to non-Muslims is a > byproduct of the growing overlay of antipathy between the Sunnis and Shias of > their own faith. Also, I feel sure that the scientific and technological > successes of Israel in recent years, rather than its mere existence, have > been provocative. > > Keith > > At 20:53 05/08/2012, Arthur wrote: > > > Just to provide some more perspective on the very unstable middle east. > > Israel, the Arab world’s all-purpose enemy > > > > George Jonas | > > Aug 4, 2012 6:01 AM ET | > > Last Updated: Aug 4, 2012 9:48 AM ET > > National Post > > And how is the Arab Spring? Well, there’s bad news, and good news. The bad > news is that since the beginning of the phenomenon that has been discussed > more and understood less than any in recent years, hostility to Israel in the > region has only increased. The good news is that while the appetite to harm > the Jewish state and its inhabitants has grown in the Arab/Muslim world since > the fall of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia launched what was supposed to > be the region’s democratic renewal, the capacity to do so has diminished. > > An increase in hostility was predictable. Hatred against Israel, kept on a > low boil, is the organizing principle of the Middle East. It’s the region’s > main fuel of governance; often its only fuel. Some ruling regimes kings, > dictators, whatever may have oil wells and sandy beaches, but other than > hating Israel (and looking after their families and tribes) they have few if > any ideas. If they do, chances are it’s to hate some other group in addition > to Israel. > > In the Middle East a country’s national purpose often amounts to little more > than a list of its enemies. A feeling of being ill-done by dominates the > consciousness of groups and individuals. Since it’s a self-fulfilling > prophecy, it’s not necessarily baseless: The easiest way to have an enemy is > to be one. > > The centrality of hatred to the culture is remarkable. The Cartesian idea is > “I hate, therefore I am.” Self-righteousness is overwhelming: each desire > thwarted becomes an example of justice denied. It’s not a pretty place, but > millions call it home. > > In many ways, Israel is a godsend to the one-trick ponies who rule the > region. Their culture defines “ruling” as inoculating your own sect or tribe > against all others, including the ones that form your own country. Many > Middle East nations Iraq, Syria, Libya, to name three are just > temporarily halted civil wars. They’re truces rather than countries. Canada > may be “two solitudes,” but it isn’t an uneasy truce between French and > English Canadians. Iraq is, between Shia and Sunni Muslims. > > In such an ambiance, nothing is handier than an all-purpose enemy, just out > of reach, close enough to seem a realistic threat but too far to be one. > Tyrants can govern by whipping up enough popular sentiment against the Jewish > state to give their regimes an apparent national purpose and distract > people’s attention from domestic woes, then relax and spend some money in the > capitals of Europe. > > The key is a low boil, though. If the anti-Israeli sentiment boils over, > causing riots against the government for being too soft on the Zionists, or > foolish attempts to attack Haifa with rockets, which in turn invites > retaliation, the people’s hatred of Israel becomes a headache for the very > rulers who instigated it. > > “Yeah, well, it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch,” somebody might say, “I’ll > lose no sleep over it.” He should, though, because it’s like pulling a thread > from a piece of fabric. Things can unravel in an instant. > > Tyranny, Egyptian-style, under Hosni Mubarak or Libyan-style, under Muammar > Gaddafi, often manifested itself in dictatorial governments balancing on a > tightrope, trying to maintain a fragile peace with Israel against their own > bellicose people, trying to counteract the effects of the sentiments they > themselves instigated. When they couldn’t, the forces they helped conjure up > turned against them. If lucky, they died in a hail of bullets on the > reviewing stand like Anwar Sadat; if not, bludgeoned like a cornered rat in a > culvert, in the manner of Gaddafi. It’s a fate Bashar al-Assad has been > trying to avoid, which is hardly surprising. > > Assad “has threatened to rain missiles down on Tel Aviv should NATO try to > dislodge him,” as Michael Koplow put it in the National Interest, but in fact > Syria’s tyrant has been raining missiles (and if not missiles, then shells > and bullets) on his own towns and villages. No wonder, for that’s where his > enemies live his actual enemies, as opposed to his mythical ones. It’s his > fellow Syrians who want to trap him in a culvert and drown him, preferably > along with his entire tribe. Israel has no interest in touching him with a > 10-foot pole, especially as long as he’s keeping Syria’s armed forces and > rebels thinning each other’s ranks. > > We won’t understand much about the Arab Spring as long as we persist in > looking at it through Western eyes. We see popular uprisings against > dictatorships as moves in the direction of Western-style democracy. If they > happened here, they probably would be. Where they’re actually happening > they’re taking their societies in the opposite direction. > > The Arab Spring is an attempt to return the region to its roots. It’s not to > Westernize the Middle East and make it more democratic; it’s to Easternize it > and make it more Islamic. If the early 20th century was about the East trying > to join what it couldn’t lick, the early 21st may be about the East trying to > lick what it hasn’t been able to join. > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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