This is becoming an obsession. Let's just take a deep breath and move on to other things, other interests.
arthur From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:22 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the Middle East No, facts are facts, Arthur. They are NOT like shifting sands, though some find it useful to treat them as such. Your source -- the David Project! is not one that presents a factual exposition of the matter, so it was useless as a source for your purposes. What it does, it does well, and I am not attacking the source. I am criticizing you for using that source, and implying that it was factual. My only "point" is to counter some of the mis- and disinformation about the Middle East that the web so readily enables. Only careful attention to facts can counter this misuse of the web and the harm that it does to those who use it. I know that as an old policy analyst you understand this. Nor am I "attacking" you. You made some important assertions and I asked you to provide a factual basis for them. That is not an attack on you; rather, it is an invitation to you to give some flesh and credibility to your assertions. If you prefer to decline this invitation, that is your choice, but posting disinformation from an well-known pro-Israeli (or any other) advocacy group is a misleading response on your part. Anyway, I am guessing that everyone reading this knows what the argument is about and can draw their own conclusions. I can't think of anything more that I have to add. Peace be with you, Arthur. On Aug 7, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Arthur Cordell wrote: I refuse to be drawn into this. "Facts" regarding the ME are like the shifting sands of the desert. You see one thing and I see another. Attacking me or my sources only demonstrates that you are trying to score a point of some sort. arthur From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:57 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the Middle East Arthur, you and I and everyone else are entitled to their own views, Arthur. On this we agree. But you are NOT entitled to your own facts. No one is. If you divorce yourself from the facts -- from reality -- then you descend into the realm of the propagandists. So, I ask again, and I think because these refer to YOUR statements that you posted here, we are entitled to hear your responses: 1. What are the facts upon which you base your assertion that the Arab armies massed themselves and provoked the 1948 and 1956 wars? Do you have ANY facts that support this assertion? I don't think you do, but if there is any fact that supports this assertion I am eager to hear it. 2. What is your source for your cut-and-paste that begins "The 1948 War of Independence was the first major conflict"? Was it really the explicitly Israeli advocacy group, the David Project? This is a group whose mission is to provide pro-Israel college students with pro-Israel sound-bites. To you, facts and history may be mere minutiae, but to those who actually pay attention to what is happening facts are the essential building blocks through which we come to understand reality. You don't want to "dive into...history". Why not? That is, after all, what it takes to participate intelligently in discussion of past and current history. Does your unwillingness to provide ANY supportive facts suggest that a discussion of a real situation is not your goal, but advocacy -- even if it includes disinformation -- is? I deeply hope not, Arthur. On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Arthur Cordell wrote: I am sorry I responded to you. Your views are yours. Mine are mine. I should have followed my own advice. Let's leave this before we dive into the minutiae of history. arthur From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 11:39 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the Middle East With "facts" like those, no wonder you are confused about what started the 1948 war! Facts? You are ignoring the pre-Independence military build-up by the Jewish army; the terrorist attacks on both the Palestinians (Deir Yasin, for example) and the British-led government (King David Hotel bombing) by the Stern Gang and the Irgun; the B-17s that the Zionist organization smuggled into Palestine. You are ignoring the pre-May 14 movements of the Zionist military (Haganah, etc). You are ignoring that what the pro-Zionist commentators like to call the Arab armies were in fact not armies at all (with the possible exception of the Jordanians, who moved well after the Zionist armies had already seized huge areas of Palestine). I am happy to discuss the facts with you, Arthur, but best to do so accurately and comprehensively, rather than through reference to a one-sided account, such as the one you quoted -- without attribution. It sounds to me like you copied it from some ultra pro-Israeli website. Where is the quote from? On Aug 6, 2012, at 8:52 PM, Arthur Cordell wrote: Here is one interpretation. No doubt Lawry see it differently The 1948 War of Independence was the first major conflict of the ongoing series of Arab-Israeli wars. The war was initiated by the Arab states following the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine and the Israeli Declaration of Independence on May 14 1948. The next day on May 15, five Arab states: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq simultaneously invaded Israel with the goal of destroying the Jewish state. This war was the result of years of Arab rejection and violence stemming from the rise of modern Zionism and British policies in the Middle East. The 1948 War resulted in a decisive Israeli victory. For the Arab states, the war was a complete tactical and strategic failure that resulted in continued anti-Semitism and rejectionism as well as the creation of both the Arab and Jewish refugee situation that has perpetuated the conflict and led to further Arab-Israeli wars. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:26 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the Middle East It is not a matter of "views," it is a matter of facts. To your statement and your language: please tell us what Arab armies were "massed" and provoked the 1948 and 1956 war. On Aug 6, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Arthur Cordell wrote: We have been through this before. You have your views and I have mine. Arthur From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 10:26 AM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the Middle East Please tell us what Arab armies were "massed" and provoked the 1948 and 1956 war. Then we'll address the 1967 war. On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Cordell wrote: Re: the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars being the cause of such anger at Israel. I think rather than the wars it was because the massed Arab nations that provoked the wars ended up losing. It was the loss on the battlefield and the loss of face that continues to rankle. But there are other currents at work in the ME, and it is the reaction to modernism. And this is also seen in Israel with the strength of the religious groups. If Israel disappears it will be a short term victory, the fight against modernism will continue. arthur From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:25 AM To: Keith Hudson; RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the Middle East Good morning, Keith. Yes, Muslims view Jews, Christians (broadly defined) and Muslims all as "Ahl al-Kitab" -- People of the Book. All the early converts to Islam were, of course, Jewish, Christian, or pan- and polytheistic. Converting to Islam was not difficult for Jews and Christians, as they and Muslims have the same god. So conversion simply meant understanding that Muhammad was the most recent of the prophets/messengers/ sent by God/Yahweh/Allah, and taking the Qur'an as the last and literal message/voice of Allah. If you will, you can think of Muhammad and the Quran as the 'latest edition.' Would you say more about the effect of Sunni-Shi'a tension on Muslim-non-Muslim relations? Thanks. My sense is, and this summarizes many disparate conversations with Arabs/Muslims about Israel, is not that Israeli technological and scientific success provokes them against Israel, but that the seizure of Palestine; the current onerous and murderous occupation; the Israeli black ops against Arabs and Muslim countries; and the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars are the cause of such anger at Israel. Israel's technological succes is something that many Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims admire, though the relative debauchery of some segments of the Israeli Jewish population do not. Of course, the Arabs have their own record of world-class debauchery among some of their elites -- a source of considerable resentment and contempt among the general population. Or an interpersonal level, Israelis and Palestinians (and Arabs/Muslims) generally can get along fairly easily. Indeed I know of many deep and lasting friendships between them, including marriages. Cheers, Lawry On Aug 6, 2012, at 7:11 AM, Keith Hudson wrote: Muhammad enjoined his followers to treat Jews and Christians with respect, as fellow believers in the Bible (that is, the old testament) and partners of the Abrahamic line. What has coloured Muslim's attitude to non-Muslims is a byproduct of the growing overlay of antipathy between the Sunnis and Shias of their own faith. Also, I feel sure that the scientific and technological successes of Israel in recent years, rather than its mere existence, have been provocative. Keith At 20:53 05/08/2012, Arthur wrote: Just to provide some more perspective on the very unstable middle east. Israel, the Arab world's all-purpose enemy George Jonas <http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/author/gjonasnp/> | Aug 4, 2012 6:01 AM ET | Last Updated: Aug 4, 2012 9:48 AM ET National Post And how is the Arab Spring? Well, there's bad news, and good news. The bad news is that since the beginning of the phenomenon that has been discussed more and understood less than any in recent years, hostility to Israel in the region has only increased. The good news is that while the appetite to harm the Jewish state and its inhabitants has grown in the Arab/Muslim world since the fall of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia launched what was supposed to be the region's democratic renewal, the capacity to do so has diminished. An increase in hostility was predictable. Hatred against Israel, kept on a low boil, is the organizing principle of the Middle East. It's the region's main fuel of governance; often its only fuel. Some ruling regimes - kings, dictators, whatever - may have oil wells and sandy beaches, but other than hating Israel (and looking after their families and tribes) they have few if any ideas. If they do, chances are it's to hate some other group in addition to Israel. In the Middle East a country's national purpose often amounts to little more than a list of its enemies. A feeling of being ill-done by dominates the consciousness of groups and individuals. Since it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's not necessarily baseless: The easiest way to have an enemy is to be one. The centrality of hatred to the culture is remarkable. The Cartesian idea is "I hate, therefore I am." Self-righteousness is overwhelming: each desire thwarted becomes an example of justice denied. It's not a pretty place, but millions call it home. In many ways, Israel is a godsend to the one-trick ponies who rule the region. Their culture defines "ruling" as inoculating your own sect or tribe against all others, including the ones that form your own country. Many Middle East nations - Iraq, Syria, Libya, to name three - are just temporarily halted civil wars. They're truces rather than countries. Canada may be "two solitudes," but it isn't an uneasy truce between French and English Canadians. Iraq is, between Shia and Sunni Muslims. In such an ambiance, nothing is handier than an all-purpose enemy, just out of reach, close enough to seem a realistic threat but too far to be one. Tyrants can govern by whipping up enough popular sentiment against the Jewish state to give their regimes an apparent national purpose and distract people's attention from domestic woes, then relax and spend some money in the capitals of Europe. The key is a low boil, though. If the anti-Israeli sentiment boils over, causing riots against the government for being too soft on the Zionists, or foolish attempts to attack Haifa with rockets, which in turn invites retaliation, the people's hatred of Israel becomes a headache for the very rulers who instigated it. "Yeah, well, it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch," somebody might say, "I'll lose no sleep over it." He should, though, because it's like pulling a thread from a piece of fabric. Things can unravel in an instant. Tyranny, Egyptian-style, under Hosni Mubarak or Libyan-style, under Muammar Gaddafi, often manifested itself in dictatorial governments balancing on a tightrope, trying to maintain a fragile peace with Israel against their own bellicose people, trying to counteract the effects of the sentiments they themselves instigated. When they couldn't, the forces they helped conjure up turned against them. If lucky, they died in a hail of bullets on the reviewing stand like Anwar Sadat; if not, bludgeoned like a cornered rat in a culvert, in the manner of Gaddafi. It's a fate Bashar al-Assad has been trying to avoid, which is hardly surprising. Assad "has threatened to rain missiles down on Tel Aviv should NATO try to dislodge him," as Michael Koplow put it <http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/how-the-arab-spring-keeps-israel-saf e-7268> in the National Interest, but in fact Syria's tyrant has been raining missiles (and if not missiles, then shells and bullets) on his own towns and villages. No wonder, for that's where his enemies live - his actual enemies, as opposed to his mythical ones. It's his fellow Syrians who want to trap him in a culvert and drown him, preferably along with his entire tribe. Israel has no interest in touching him with a 10-foot pole, especially as long as he's keeping Syria's armed forces and rebels thinning each other's ranks. We won't understand much about the Arab Spring as long as we persist in looking at it through Western eyes. We see popular uprisings against dictatorships as moves in the direction of Western-style democracy. If they happened here, they probably would be. Where they're actually happening they're taking their societies in the opposite direction. The Arab Spring is an attempt to return the region to its roots. It's not to Westernize the Middle East and make it more democratic; it's to Easternize it and make it more Islamic. If the early 20th century was about the East trying to join what it couldn't lick, the early 21st may be about the East trying to lick what it hasn't been able to join. _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com <http://allisstatus.wordpress.com/> _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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