Arthur, you and I and everyone else are entitled to their own views, Arthur. On this we agree. But you are NOT entitled to your own facts. No one is. If you divorce yourself from the facts -- from reality -- then you descend into the realm of the propagandists.
So, I ask again, and I think because these refer to YOUR statements that you posted here, we are entitled to hear your responses: 1. What are the facts upon which you base your assertion that the Arab armies massed themselves and provoked the 1948 and 1956 wars? Do you have ANY facts that support this assertion? I don't think you do, but if there is any fact that supports this assertion I am eager to hear it. 2. What is your source for your cut-and-paste that begins "The 1948 War of Independence was the first major conflict"? Was it really the explicitly Israeli advocacy group, the David Project? This is a group whose mission is to provide pro-Israel college students with pro-Israel sound-bites. To you, facts and history may be mere minutiae, but to those who actually pay attention to what is happening facts are the essential building blocks through which we come to understand reality. You don't want to "dive into...history". Why not? That is, after all, what it takes to participate intelligently in discussion of past and current history. Does your unwillingness to provide ANY supportive facts suggest that a discussion of a real situation is not your goal, but advocacy -- even if it includes disinformation -- is? I deeply hope not, Arthur. On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Arthur Cordell wrote: > I am sorry I responded to you. Your views are yours. Mine are mine. > > I should have followed my own advice. Let’s leave this before we dive into > the minutiae of history. > > arthur > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 11:39 PM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the > Middle East > > With "facts" like those, no wonder you are confused about what started the > 1948 war! > > Facts? You are ignoring the pre-Independence military build-up by the Jewish > army; the terrorist attacks on both the Palestinians (Deir Yasin, for > example) and the British-led government (King David Hotel bombing) by the > Stern Gang and the Irgun; the B-17s that the Zionist organization smuggled > into Palestine. You are ignoring the pre-May 14 movements of the Zionist > military (Haganah, etc). You are ignoring that what the pro-Zionist > commentators like to call the Arab armies were in fact not armies at all > (with the possible exception of the Jordanians, who moved well after the > Zionist armies had already seized huge areas of Palestine). > > I am happy to discuss the facts with you, Arthur, but best to do so > accurately and comprehensively, rather than through reference to a one-sided > account, such as the one you quoted -- without attribution. It sounds to me > like you copied it from some ultra pro-Israeli website. Where is the quote > from? > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 8:52 PM, Arthur Cordell wrote: > > > Here is one interpretation. No doubt Lawry see it differently > > The 1948 War of Independence was the first major conflict of the ongoing > series of Arab-Israeli wars. The war was initiated by the Arab states > following the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine and the Israeli > Declaration of Independence on May 14 1948. The next day on May 15, five Arab > states: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq simultaneously invaded Israel > with the goal of destroying the Jewish state. This war was the result of > years of Arab rejection and violence stemming from the rise of modern Zionism > and British policies in the Middle East. The 1948 War resulted in a decisive > Israeli victory. For the Arab states, the war was a complete tactical and > strategic failure that resulted in continued anti-Semitism and rejectionism > as well as the creation of both the Arab and Jewish refugee situation that > has perpetuated the conflict and led to further Arab-Israeli wars. > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 6:26 PM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the > Middle East > > It is not a matter of "views," it is a matter of facts. > > To your statement and your language: please tell us what Arab armies were > "massed" and provoked the 1948 and 1956 war. > > > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Arthur Cordell wrote: > > > > We have been through this before. You have your views and I have mine. > > Arthur > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 10:26 AM > To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the > Middle East > > Please tell us what Arab armies were "massed" and provoked the 1948 and 1956 > war. > > Then we'll address the 1967 war. > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Cordell wrote: > > > > > Re: the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars being the cause of such anger at Israel. I > think rather than the wars it was because the massed Arab nations that > provoked the wars ended up losing. It was the loss on the battlefield and > the loss of face that continues to rankle. But there are other currents at > work in the ME, and it is the reaction to modernism. And this is also seen > in Israel with the strength of the religious groups. > > If Israel disappears it will be a short term victory, the fight against > modernism will continue. > > arthur > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of de Bivort Lawrence > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 8:25 AM > To: Keith Hudson; RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Hatred against Israel organizing principle of the > Middle East > > Good morning, Keith. Yes, Muslims view Jews, Christians (broadly defined) > and Muslims all as "Ahl al-Kitab" -- People of the Book. All the early > converts to Islam were, of course, Jewish, Christian, or pan- and > polytheistic. Converting to Islam was not difficult for Jews and Christians, > as they and Muslims have the same god. So conversion simply meant > understanding that Muhammad was the most recent of the prophets/messengers/ > sent by God/Yahweh/Allah, and taking the Qur'an as the last and literal > message/voice of Allah. If you will, you can think of Muhammad and the Quran > as the 'latest edition.' > > Would you say more about the effect of Sunni-Shi'a tension on > Muslim-non-Muslim relations? Thanks. > > My sense is, and this summarizes many disparate conversations with > Arabs/Muslims about Israel, is not that Israeli technological and scientific > success provokes them against Israel, but that the seizure of Palestine; the > current onerous and murderous occupation; the Israeli black ops against Arabs > and Muslim countries; and the 1948, 1956, and 1967 wars are the cause of such > anger at Israel. > > Israel's technological succes is something that many Palestinians, Arabs and > Muslims admire, though the relative debauchery of some segments of the > Israeli Jewish population do not. Of course, the Arabs have their own record > of world-class debauchery among some of their elites -- a source of > considerable resentment and contempt among the general population. > > Or an interpersonal level, Israelis and Palestinians (and Arabs/Muslims) > generally can get along fairly easily. Indeed I know of many deep and lasting > friendships between them, including marriages. > > Cheers, > Lawry > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 7:11 AM, Keith Hudson wrote: > > > > > > Muhammad enjoined his followers to treat Jews and Christians with respect, as > fellow believers in the Bible (that is, the old testament) and partners of > the Abrahamic line. What has coloured Muslim's attitude to non-Muslims is a > byproduct of the growing overlay of antipathy between the Sunnis and Shias of > their own faith. Also, I feel sure that the scientific and technological > successes of Israel in recent years, rather than its mere existence, have > been provocative. > > Keith > > At 20:53 05/08/2012, Arthur wrote: > > > > > Just to provide some more perspective on the very unstable middle east. > > Israel, the Arab world’s all-purpose enemy > > > > George Jonas | > > Aug 4, 2012 6:01 AM ET | > > Last Updated: Aug 4, 2012 9:48 AM ET > > National Post > > And how is the Arab Spring? Well, there’s bad news, and good news. The bad > news is that since the beginning of the phenomenon that has been discussed > more and understood less than any in recent years, hostility to Israel in the > region has only increased. The good news is that while the appetite to harm > the Jewish state and its inhabitants has grown in the Arab/Muslim world since > the fall of Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali in Tunisia launched what was supposed to > be the region’s democratic renewal, the capacity to do so has diminished. > > An increase in hostility was predictable. Hatred against Israel, kept on a > low boil, is the organizing principle of the Middle East. It’s the region’s > main fuel of governance; often its only fuel. Some ruling regimes kings, > dictators, whatever may have oil wells and sandy beaches, but other than > hating Israel (and looking after their families and tribes) they have few if > any ideas. If they do, chances are it’s to hate some other group in addition > to Israel. > > In the Middle East a country’s national purpose often amounts to little more > than a list of its enemies. A feeling of being ill-done by dominates the > consciousness of groups and individuals. Since it’s a self-fulfilling > prophecy, it’s not necessarily baseless: The easiest way to have an enemy is > to be one. > > The centrality of hatred to the culture is remarkable. The Cartesian idea is > “I hate, therefore I am.” Self-righteousness is overwhelming: each desire > thwarted becomes an example of justice denied. It’s not a pretty place, but > millions call it home. > > In many ways, Israel is a godsend to the one-trick ponies who rule the > region. Their culture defines “ruling” as inoculating your own sect or tribe > against all others, including the ones that form your own country. Many > Middle East nations Iraq, Syria, Libya, to name three are just > temporarily halted civil wars. They’re truces rather than countries. Canada > may be “two solitudes,” but it isn’t an uneasy truce between French and > English Canadians. Iraq is, between Shia and Sunni Muslims. > > In such an ambiance, nothing is handier than an all-purpose enemy, just out > of reach, close enough to seem a realistic threat but too far to be one. > Tyrants can govern by whipping up enough popular sentiment against the Jewish > state to give their regimes an apparent national purpose and distract > people’s attention from domestic woes, then relax and spend some money in the > capitals of Europe. > > The key is a low boil, though. If the anti-Israeli sentiment boils over, > causing riots against the government for being too soft on the Zionists, or > foolish attempts to attack Haifa with rockets, which in turn invites > retaliation, the people’s hatred of Israel becomes a headache for the very > rulers who instigated it. > > “Yeah, well, it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch,” somebody might say, “I’ll > lose no sleep over it.” He should, though, because it’s like pulling a thread > from a piece of fabric. Things can unravel in an instant. > > Tyranny, Egyptian-style, under Hosni Mubarak or Libyan-style, under Muammar > Gaddafi, often manifested itself in dictatorial governments balancing on a > tightrope, trying to maintain a fragile peace with Israel against their own > bellicose people, trying to counteract the effects of the sentiments they > themselves instigated. When they couldn’t, the forces they helped conjure up > turned against them. If lucky, they died in a hail of bullets on the > reviewing stand like Anwar Sadat; if not, bludgeoned like a cornered rat in a > culvert, in the manner of Gaddafi. It’s a fate Bashar al-Assad has been > trying to avoid, which is hardly surprising. > > Assad “has threatened to rain missiles down on Tel Aviv should NATO try to > dislodge him,” as Michael Koplow put it in the National Interest, but in fact > Syria’s tyrant has been raining missiles (and if not missiles, then shells > and bullets) on his own towns and villages. No wonder, for that’s where his > enemies live his actual enemies, as opposed to his mythical ones. It’s his > fellow Syrians who want to trap him in a culvert and drown him, preferably > along with his entire tribe. Israel has no interest in touching him with a > 10-foot pole, especially as long as he’s keeping Syria’s armed forces and > rebels thinning each other’s ranks. > > We won’t understand much about the Arab Spring as long as we persist in > looking at it through Western eyes. We see popular uprisings against > dictatorships as moves in the direction of Western-style democracy. If they > happened here, they probably would be. Where they’re actually happening > they’re taking their societies in the opposite direction. > > The Arab Spring is an attempt to return the region to its roots. It’s not to > Westernize the Middle East and make it more democratic; it’s to Easternize it > and make it more Islamic. If the early 20th century was about the East trying > to join what it couldn’t lick, the early 21st may be about the East trying to > lick what it hasn’t been able to join. > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > Keith Hudson, Saltford, England http://allisstatus.wordpress.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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