I reread what you wrote. From what you wrote, it all seems about moral flaws and luck. Social Domains. That's what it seems to me you are saying. If not then please tell me what you mean? I'm willing to listen. If you don't mean luck and immoral greed/power, then tell me what you mean and I will think on it.:>))
REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kurtz Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 10:14 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] <spamFilter -1.9 yellow> Re: Orangutans found to plan, communicate future routes to plan, communicate future routes Orangutans found to plan, communicate future routes to plan, communicate future routes On Sep 16, 2013, at 9:42 PM, Ray Harrell wrote: So Steve, are you saying that no one's responsible? I give up, Ray. You create stories that have no relation to what I write. What about that pedophile murderer in Switzerland? Huh? Society should do as other mammals do: take him out of the gene pool for the benefit of the species. What about Stalin? Hitler? Andrew Jackson? What goes around doesn't come around? There is no Karma? No cause and effect? Just uncertainty? Uncertainty vs absolute certainty does not relate to weight of the evidence given observation. I proceed according to my imperfect perceptions and evaluations. I may be wrong in judging outcomes. But I do NOT proclaim absolute justice, truth, beauty, precognition, etc. That makes science a joke. huh? Science IS UNCERTAINTY. Every position/theory is contingent. Do you mean that? You also said: ....I have said for decades that uncertainty is my position. But human perceptors are tuned to biological evolutionary results; they are limited in range and scope, even with technological aids. Reality is infinite until a boundary is evidenced. Ignorance is infinite. Making claims without evidence is infinite hubris or pure speculation. (maybe, but no cigar) ;-) Why do you think this is so special a thought? That is your statement, not mine. It is my view of reality. Yes human perception is limited. Yes it comes from growth and evolution. Yes technology is embodied so it's limited as well. No "reality" is not infinite but is a word. Show us a boundary, and then you claim of finitude will trump me. We can't even think infinity, omnipresent, omniscience or without end. You....can't We are limited. So? So, that limits our statements about reality. What we try to symbolize is bigger than we can think and it may be without end or not. Key word: try. Ignorance is not infinite since it dies with us. Wrong in my position. Thank God. Thank dog. The greatest hubris of all, is language where we claim to speak the truth. That is your game. But does that mean we should be mute? You attempt to force that position on al others, but not on yourself. Without relationship? Dialogue? The " other" is a social and biological necessity. We proceed interacting as we cannot do otherwise as a species. Why do you put words into my mouth that are your fiction? I believe the answer is found in groups and in intelligent machines projected from our psycho-physical reality so that we can interpret them. OK. But whatever the answer is to you is your evaluation, not an oracle. Why would you care that you are immature if you are? At 68? ;-) Stop the ad hominem. Maturity still comes Why would you care that you are incompetent if you are? We are all incompetent at many things/actions -imperfect and mortal... Learning is filled with endorphins and must have some meaning along with all of that pleasure. Life is material; glad to hear you agree..sometimes! ;-) Why would you care that your perceptions are limited if opening them up is done with the pleasure of Music, Art, Dance, Good food, Beautiful flowers, the Colors of Sunrise? Why would you care that you are a child "in comparison"? if you get to go to the party anyway? It matters not that we are meager, only that we help one another around our meagerness: to perceive, solve problems, heal and find meaning and significance at times when it isn't obvious. I left my home because people stopped me from my work and threatened things that would make my life meaningless. I found hope although I have no homeland. Sometimes it means more to sleep on the ground than to experience the finest mattress but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't search for human quality and help the world in our feeble fashion and try with all of our being to walk in beauty. Nothing between my last words and here in any way contradicts my position. Life is a process. We each value it a bit differently. Nature puts boundaries on us on Earth, and when we travel beyond it. But the boundary is our relation to it; Reality is still likely boundless- as no external boundary is known. Steve At the end of this article is a lot of what I've learned as well. http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/09/06/condoleezza-rice-how-could-these-people-hate- us-so-much/ REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kurtz Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 7:56 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] <spamFilter -1.9 yellow> Re: Orangutans found to plan, communicate future routes to plan, communicate future routes Greed/power tail of the Bell Curve the buyers; genetics, epigenitics, luck of place/time/parentage the 'answer' in my opinion. Cheers, Steve On Sep 16, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Ray Harrell wrote: What sector bought it and what's the answer to their power? REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kurtz Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 6:28 PM To: RE-DESIGNING WORK, INCOME DISTRIBUTION, EDUCATION Subject: Re: [Futurework] <spamFilter -1.9 yellow> Re: Orangutans found to plan, communicate future routes Hard to do worse for the populace than the bought govt of the US. Steve On Sep 16, 2013, at 1:45 PM, Ray Harrell wrote: Is the point that even an Orangutang is capable of central planning? REH From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kurtz Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 5:58 AM To: Futurework list Subject: [Futurework] Orangutans found to plan, communicate future routes We are exceptional mammals, but mammals. Steve http://www.world-science.net/othernews/130913_orangutans.htm Orangutans found to plan, communicate future routes Sept. 13, 2013 Courtesy of the University of Zurich and <http://www.world-science.net/> World Science staff Male orangutans plan their trav-el route up to a day in ad-vance and com-mu-ni-cate it to oth-er orangutans, re-search in-di-cates. An-thro-po-l-o-gists at the Uni-vers-ity of Zu-rich found that wild-living orangutans make use of the plan-ning abil-ity to at-tract fe-males and re-pel male ri-vals. <image001.jpg> A male orangutan (Courtesy U. of Zurich) _____ For a long time it was thought that only hu-mans could an-ti-cipate fu-ture ac-tions, whe-re-as an-i-mals are caught in the he-re-and-now. But re-cent, clev-er ex-pe-ri-ments with great apes in zoos have shown that they re-mem-ber past events and can plan for fu-ture needs. The Uni-vers-ity of Zu-rich group in-ves-t-i-gated wheth-er wild apes al-so have this skill. The re-search-ers fol-lowed the apes for years through the thick trop-i-cal swamp-lands of Su-ma-tra. Orangutans gen-er-ally roam the for-est alone, but they do main-tain rela-t-ion-ships. Adult males some-times emit so-called "long calls," us-ing their cheek pads to am-pli-fy sound like a meg-a-phone. These calls tend have some-what op-po-site ef-fects on male and female hear-ers. Females that hear a faint call tend to ap-proach. Non-dominant ma-les, on the oth-er hand, hur-ry away if they hear the call com-ing at them loud and clear. To maximize this ef-fect, it "would make sense for the male to call in the di-rec-tion of his fu-ture whe-re-a-bouts, if he al-ready knew about them," said re-searcher Ca-rel van Schaik of the uni-vers-ity. Con-sis-tent with this idea, the team "ob-served that the males trav-eled for sev-er-al hours in ap-prox-i-mately the same di-rec-tion as they had called." In ex-treme cases, he added, long calls made around nest-ing time in the eve-ning pre-dicted the trav-el di-rec-tion at better-than-chance rates un-til the next eve-ning. In ad-di-tion, the males of-ten an-nounced changes in trav-el di-rec-tion with a new long call, the team found. And in the morn-ing, they found, the oth-er orangutans re-acted cor-rectly to the long call of the pre-vi-ous eve-ning, even if no new long call was emitted. "Our study makes it clear that wild orangutans do not simply live in the here-and-now, but can im-ag-ine a fu-ture and even an-nounce their plans. In this sense, then, they have be-come a bit more like us," said van Schaik. The find-ings are pub-lished in the Sept. 11 is-sue of the jour-nal PLoS One. * * * Send us a comment on this story, or send it to a friend <mailto:?Body=http://www.world-science.net/othernews/130913_orangutans.htm> _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [email protected] https://lists.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
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