Rabbi Michael Lerner (Tikkun) and Cornel West had an interesting dialogue in this very area. It's available as a book "Jews and Blacks: A Dialogue on Race, Religion, and Culture in America" (Penguin).
In the current social moment, I don't think it is possible to compare Jewish culture with Black culture. They have a fundamentally different social experience. Due to education and social mobility, many Jews are now conservative members of the Establishment and are turning away from the liberalism and humanism of their traditional teachings and historical social struggles for acceptance. It is a tension within the culture acknowledged by Lerner, most particularly among the young. To just point to their overrepresentation within the prison population, the experience of Blacks is quite different. The point can be extended to the world of work. Lest anyone be inclined to pounce on that example, please spare me the 'blame the victim' or eugenics responses. I think they are a crock. Ray makes a valid case for listening to him. Social groups have emotional histories that are passed from generation to generation. Anger, dehumanization, murder, powerlessness, rage, torture, and the forms of human indignity described by Ray produce self-hatred and anti-social dysfunction. My father came to Canada as child labour from England. From the age of 5, as an agrarian labourer, his experience of Canada was one of social marginalization and low self-esteem. Over a hundred years later, that emotional legacy is still a part of my family, having been passed from generation to generation. I have observed this in the various offshoots of the family, both in Canada and in the United States, even if they do not know the family history. The example is not on the same scale, as that of Ray, but the psycho-social dynamic is similar. Clinically, I believe the practitioners assign the term PTSD [Post-traumatic stress disorder] to this kind of behaviour. Bob Bowd ----- Original Message ----- From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice inthe job stakes > So did Malcolm X have anything to say? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ray Evans Harrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:57 PM > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > inthe job stakes > > > Do the data. Are you talking about race in the world sense or are you > talking about a new fake culture that has been created by destroying the > cultures of a single race through the action of slavery? What makes you > think that a Jew who simply changed his name is the same as a man who had > his identity beaten out of him and his family stripped from him for sale? > These people carry skills and somatic cues within their personalities that > they have no idea where they came from or what they mean. Jews aren't > anything like that. You have a culture and a religion that is complete > from A to Z. They are building theirs from scratch. They are the only > ones who race might have a valid point to. > > Keith is claiming that I'm being emotional, well, no I was being vulgar > since I considered him being bourgeous. My game is tit for tat and not > zero-sum. His examples have absolutely nothing to do with American blacks. > They are of the order of the false syllogism about all Rays have green eyes > because I do. If we don't wake up and grow up and use our tools then we > are doomed. In order to understand Malcolm you need to walk in his > community and know those around him. I did and have. Do the scientific > work. Bring in ALL the data. And then make decisions as informed as you > can. Otherwise it is just gossip. In short, Keith's story doesn't work > and its taking us down the hole. That is what is going on around the > world. Instead of valuing the genius of culture we use the negatives to > destroy us. > > It is very simple. You can use day laborers to tear down a building in > short order but it takes builders and skilled workers years to build one. > What comes down in a day with negativity took years to build. Ignorance is > no excuse and certainly no path to building anything but frustration. > Today's greatest thinkers believe that Sand Dabs and their preparation are > more important that symphony orchestra's survival. That living in a boring > paradise is preferable to a great civilization. They can't concentrate on > more than a page and they are easily overwhelmed rather than fascinated. > The article you sent about Richard Florida was the same that I posted here > to silence almost a year ago. And it is not the point either. Education > and brain development is. Culture builds brains and it can be used for > good to build or to tear down in prejudice. I'm building. And it sure > as hell is difficult given the current idiocy. But what more is there? > Keith is also building but he just reflexes to the negative and I never > support that garbage ever. > > REH > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:16 AM > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > inthe job stakes > > > > No, but I think Malcolm X was probably on the right track. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:47 AM > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > Arthur, > > > > You are in favor of apartheid? > > > > REH > > > > > > Original Message: > > ----------------- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:18:44 -0400 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > I was responding more to Keith's remarks. > > > > More and more I am coming back to the notion of separate but equal as one > > way to deal with racial divisions. But this time it is for real. > > > > Note that I too have known discrimination and hatred. I too have been able > > to blend into the larger society. Cordell is an all American name. My > > father thought it would give us a better chance in the anti-semitic > society > > he lived in when he changed the family name from Cohen to Cordell. > > > > arthur > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert E. Bowd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:14 AM > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > in the job stakes > > > > > > Good Morning Arthur! > > > > Just so that I do not misunderstand, does your remark refer to Keith's > > response, or Ray's? > > > > As much as I respect Keith's contributions to the list, I have to thank > Ray > > for sharing his anguished experience of subordination. I have had contact > > with AIM activists, and Black activists in the 70s, along the way, and > > nothing in Ray's remarks is in conflict with their shared experiences. I > > would only comment to Keith that emotion, too, is also a way of knowing > the > > world. I could comment further, but I choose not to. > > > > Bob Bowd > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 7:53 AM > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice in > > the job stakes > > > > > > > Tough stuff, but hard to disagree with. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Keith Hudson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:21 AM > > > To: Ray Evans Harrell > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice in > > > the job stakes > > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > At 22:57 25/06/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > >God, this just gets worse. I don't have time to read this shit. > Harry > > > >were you here in 1954? Keith did you ever experience Apartheid or > > > >Segregation? > > > > > > Oh dear, you do get carried away don't you? I could take offence at > some > > > of the immoderate language you so frequently hurl at Harry and me. Why > > > don't you keep to facts instead of being carried away by your emotions? > I > > > confine most of my emotions to my nearest and dearest and working > > > colleagues because I haven't a great deal more to spread around. (And > nor > > > has any other normal person either.) If more West Indian- and > African-born > > > UK male citizens in England also confined their emotions to their > nearest > > > and dearest, and looked after their wives/girl friends and children > > instead > > > of abandoning them to the state as soon as possible, then so many of > them > > > wouldn't be occupying our prisons and more people could walk the streets > > in > > > our cities without being mugged. They came here in order to share our > > > prosperity but, *generally*, they can't cope with our particular type of > > > culture and the skills that are required for middle-class-type > > professions. > > > (But, just to make sure you understand me correctly, there are plenty of > > > white trash, too -- yes, even in our welfare state with equality of > state > > > schooling for all -- "high quality" too, according to our Labour > > government > > > -- who also abandon their wives and children and mug old people in the > > > streets.) > > > > > > Please listen to me. I believe in complete equality of legal rights and > > > opportunities for black, white, yellow, male, female, rich, middle class > > > and poor. Got it? But people are different. Different races of mankind > > have > > > different physical, emotional and mental characteristics and, > *generally*, > > > best live in different sorts of cultures. In terms of western-type > society > > > in which you and I happen to live, whites are more adept than > > > African-derived blacks, and Asians are more adept than whites.(We > already > > > have two or three Indian billionaires in this country who were thrown > out > > > of Uganda by Amin 30 years ago and stripped of their possessions. Also, > I > > > have not heard of any poor adult Chinese person in this country -- and I > > > wouldn't mind betting that there are none in San Francisco either.) The > > > prejudice of whites against blacks in this country is as nothing > compared > > > with the hatred and trouble between Hindus and Moslems in our northern > > > towns, or Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, or Walloons and > > > Flemings in Belgium, or the different tribes in Africa where they > > regularly > > > slaughter one another in their hundreds of thousands (somewhere between > 2 > > > and 4 million in the Congo alone in the past few years), and we and our > > > newspapers hardly mention these incidents because our emotions are > > limited). > > > > > > All races and cultures are capable of the grossest savagery and murder > > but, > > > otherwise, different races and cultures are manifoldly different in > their > > > daily lives. Not totally. But different enough for us to take notice and > > > discuss each situation intelligently without sounding off and denying > what > > > actually happens in the real world. > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
