Ray, But it is unhealthy to define the conventional as the ideal or the potential. Unhealthy for them and unhealthy for the future of the nation.
arthur, What do you suggest? -----Original Message----- From: Ray Evans Harrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 12:42 AM To: Robert E. Bowd; Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice inthe job stakes Good points Bob, I would make a couple of points. I can point the negatives, from my background, out to the list so they can get off the chauvinistic garbage but I can also point to my aunts and uncles who all graduated from college, had careers as well as attaining advanced degrees in psychometrics in their fifties. I have a rather close connection to educational testing since my father's PHD was in it. I also know the use and abuse of such by the kinds of civilians who make judgments that the professionals avoid as if it were plague. Secondly, there are eight million Jews in America with five being in the New York City area where there is a lot of very high profile support for Jewish kids. Jews are now a minority in Manhattan for the first time since I've been here since they are moving to the suburbs and becoming more bourgeois in their tastes and attitudes. I consider the difference between conservative thought and liberal that the conservative is mediocre in their thought processes. If the Jews are joining that and they seem to be, then they are taking a step down. It is quite a difference for a rapper to become a conservative from a terrible education than for a well educated soul to do so. The Upper West Side of Manhattan is still the closest thing to heaven in America when it comes to art, education, humanity and compassion. The Jewish community is the bulwark of all four of those. So is the emerging Black community. And they couldn't be conservative. Diversity and civilization is why they are here in the first place. But elsewhere you have twenty million African Americans and they are spread across the nation as a minority wherever they are. They have done amazingly in one generation coming from nowhere in the population at large. Consider that one generation ago there were no blacks in the major Arts organizations. I remember the first black member of the New York Philharmonic and the Metropolitan opera. I also remember when there were no oriental members as well. The close oriental family most resembles the Hispanic community here where whole families work together. On the other hand, until a generation ago, the only work for blacks was female and servants. A good point can be made about the Haitians who are black but separate. The Dominicans are also different and have another path as well but let's just look at the Haitians who not so long ago were the fastest advancing group in America for affluence. They have a five member coop that they form called "the Hand". They each contribute a certain amount each month which a member consolidates and uses to capitalize his business. There is an agreement that they will repay on time which they do and the fund grows large very quickly. This group is clannish in the same way that successful groups like the Jews are. Each guard their rolodex like a wolf. If you don't have access to those networks and you have to work within them you will fail because the network is cultural and represents status. The games that Keith and others talk about glibly are played in life and death struggles in these communities. They are not unlike the games of the super-wealthy who have "Strategic Giving" which basically means that you trick others into paying your share and that is their "winning" the game. "Strategic Giving" is taught at Harvard and is limited in enrollment to millionaires. That is the game being played today by the Bush administration with taxes. Its smoke and mirrors. I was talking to one of the players the other day and she couldn't stand the Haitians. Interesting. I find games to be very unartistic and parasitic myself. I like the cooperative nature of groups but the only answer to that and what Arthur was implying is that each group sends representatives to govern the whole. That does not bode well for unity in the nation as a whole and probably means the end of Democracy in the same tired way that all Democracies have ended in the past. What a bore to be so banal and unimaginative. Anyway, there are more Blacks in prison but more crime is committed against Native Americans by non-natives than any other group. No white race person in abused in the same way. But if you broke the whites down into their own cultures they might be comparable. Only the Blacks are monolithic since they have had their past erased or sublimated through extreme abuse. There is a tremendous potential amongst the Blacks that is slowly being realized because they are all basically fundamentalist Christian of a different culture from the celtic oriented white groups. No time for me to talk about that. Right now the Italians are doing very well in the movies as the Blacks are doing in music and sports. The Jews are still in the background funding things or changing their names to "get on the stage." I find it very healthy that we can each define certain conventions and successes in each group. But it is unhealthy to define the conventional as the ideal or the potential. Unhealthy for them and unhealthy for the future of the nation. Ray Evans Harrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert E. Bowd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice inthe job stakes > Rabbi Michael Lerner (Tikkun) and Cornel West had an interesting dialogue in > this very area. It's available as a book "Jews and Blacks: A Dialogue on > Race, Religion, and Culture in America" (Penguin). > > In the current social moment, I don't think it is possible to compare Jewish > culture with Black culture. They have a fundamentally different social > experience. Due to education and social mobility, many Jews are now > conservative members of the Establishment and are turning away from the > liberalism and humanism of their traditional teachings and historical social > struggles for acceptance. It is a tension within the culture acknowledged > by Lerner, most particularly among the young. > > To just point to their overrepresentation within the prison population, the > experience of Blacks is quite different. The point can be extended to the > world of work. Lest anyone be inclined to pounce on that example, please > spare me the 'blame the victim' or eugenics responses. I think they are a > crock. > > Ray makes a valid case for listening to him. Social groups have emotional > histories that are passed from generation to generation. Anger, > dehumanization, murder, powerlessness, rage, torture, and the forms of human > indignity described by Ray produce self-hatred and anti-social dysfunction. > > My father came to Canada as child labour from England. From the age of 5, > as an agrarian labourer, his experience of Canada was one of social > marginalization and low self-esteem. Over a hundred years later, that > emotional legacy is still a part of my family, having been passed from > generation to generation. I have observed this in the various offshoots of > the family, both in Canada and in the United States, even if they do not > know the family history. > > The example is not on the same scale, as that of Ray, but the psycho-social > dynamic is similar. Clinically, I believe the practitioners assign the term > PTSD [Post-traumatic stress disorder] to this kind of behaviour. > > Bob Bowd > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:41 PM > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > inthe job stakes > > > > So did Malcolm X have anything to say? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ray Evans Harrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:57 PM > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > Do the data. Are you talking about race in the world sense or are you > > talking about a new fake culture that has been created by destroying the > > cultures of a single race through the action of slavery? What makes you > > think that a Jew who simply changed his name is the same as a man who had > > his identity beaten out of him and his family stripped from him for sale? > > These people carry skills and somatic cues within their personalities that > > they have no idea where they came from or what they mean. Jews aren't > > anything like that. You have a culture and a religion that is complete > > from A to Z. They are building theirs from scratch. They are the only > > ones who race might have a valid point to. > > > > Keith is claiming that I'm being emotional, well, no I was being vulgar > > since I considered him being bourgeous. My game is tit for tat and not > > zero-sum. His examples have absolutely nothing to do with American > blacks. > > They are of the order of the false syllogism about all Rays have green > eyes > > because I do. If we don't wake up and grow up and use our tools then we > > are doomed. In order to understand Malcolm you need to walk in his > > community and know those around him. I did and have. Do the scientific > > work. Bring in ALL the data. And then make decisions as informed as > you > > can. Otherwise it is just gossip. In short, Keith's story doesn't work > > and its taking us down the hole. That is what is going on around the > > world. Instead of valuing the genius of culture we use the negatives to > > destroy us. > > > > It is very simple. You can use day laborers to tear down a building in > > short order but it takes builders and skilled workers years to build one. > > What comes down in a day with negativity took years to build. Ignorance > is > > no excuse and certainly no path to building anything but frustration. > > Today's greatest thinkers believe that Sand Dabs and their preparation are > > more important that symphony orchestra's survival. That living in a > boring > > paradise is preferable to a great civilization. They can't concentrate > on > > more than a page and they are easily overwhelmed rather than fascinated. > > The article you sent about Richard Florida was the same that I posted here > > to silence almost a year ago. And it is not the point either. > Education > > and brain development is. Culture builds brains and it can be used for > > good to build or to tear down in prejudice. I'm building. And it sure > > as hell is difficult given the current idiocy. But what more is there? > > Keith is also building but he just reflexes to the negative and I never > > support that garbage ever. > > > > REH > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:16 AM > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > No, but I think Malcolm X was probably on the right track. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:47 AM > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > Arthur, > > > > > > You are in favor of apartheid? > > > > > > REH > > > > > > > > > Original Message: > > > ----------------- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:18:44 -0400 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > > I was responding more to Keith's remarks. > > > > > > More and more I am coming back to the notion of separate but equal as > one > > > way to deal with racial divisions. But this time it is for real. > > > > > > Note that I too have known discrimination and hatred. I too have been > able > > > to blend into the larger society. Cordell is an all American name. My > > > father thought it would give us a better chance in the anti-semitic > > society > > > he lived in when he changed the family name from Cohen to Cordell. > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Robert E. Bowd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:14 AM > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > > in the job stakes > > > > > > > > > Good Morning Arthur! > > > > > > Just so that I do not misunderstand, does your remark refer to Keith's > > > response, or Ray's? > > > > > > As much as I respect Keith's contributions to the list, I have to thank > > Ray > > > for sharing his anguished experience of subordination. I have had > contact > > > with AIM activists, and Black activists in the 70s, along the way, and > > > nothing in Ray's remarks is in conflict with their shared experiences. > I > > > would only comment to Keith that emotion, too, is also a way of knowing > > the > > > world. I could comment further, but I choose not to. > > > > > > Bob Bowd > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 7:53 AM > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > in > > > the job stakes > > > > > > > > > > Tough stuff, but hard to disagree with. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Keith Hudson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:21 AM > > > > To: Ray Evans Harrell > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice in > > > > the job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > > > At 22:57 25/06/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > >God, this just gets worse. I don't have time to read this shit. > > Harry > > > > >were you here in 1954? Keith did you ever experience Apartheid or > > > > >Segregation? > > > > > > > > Oh dear, you do get carried away don't you? I could take offence at > > some > > > > of the immoderate language you so frequently hurl at Harry and me. Why > > > > don't you keep to facts instead of being carried away by your > emotions? > > I > > > > confine most of my emotions to my nearest and dearest and working > > > > colleagues because I haven't a great deal more to spread around. (And > > nor > > > > has any other normal person either.) If more West Indian- and > > African-born > > > > UK male citizens in England also confined their emotions to their > > nearest > > > > and dearest, and looked after their wives/girl friends and children > > > instead > > > > of abandoning them to the state as soon as possible, then so many of > > them > > > > wouldn't be occupying our prisons and more people could walk the > streets > > > in > > > > our cities without being mugged. They came here in order to share our > > > > prosperity but, *generally*, they can't cope with our particular type > of > > > > culture and the skills that are required for middle-class-type > > > professions. > > > > (But, just to make sure you understand me correctly, there are plenty > of > > > > white trash, too -- yes, even in our welfare state with equality of > > state > > > > schooling for all -- "high quality" too, according to our Labour > > > government > > > > -- who also abandon their wives and children and mug old people in the > > > > streets.) > > > > > > > > Please listen to me. I believe in complete equality of legal rights > and > > > > opportunities for black, white, yellow, male, female, rich, middle > class > > > > and poor. Got it? But people are different. Different races of mankind > > > have > > > > different physical, emotional and mental characteristics and, > > *generally*, > > > > best live in different sorts of cultures. In terms of western-type > > society > > > > in which you and I happen to live, whites are more adept than > > > > African-derived blacks, and Asians are more adept than whites.(We > > already > > > > have two or three Indian billionaires in this country who were thrown > > out > > > > of Uganda by Amin 30 years ago and stripped of their possessions. > Also, > > I > > > > have not heard of any poor adult Chinese person in this country -- and > I > > > > wouldn't mind betting that there are none in San Francisco either.) > The > > > > prejudice of whites against blacks in this country is as nothing > > compared > > > > with the hatred and trouble between Hindus and Moslems in our northern > > > > towns, or Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, or Walloons > and > > > > Flemings in Belgium, or the different tribes in Africa where they > > > regularly > > > > slaughter one another in their hundreds of thousands (somewhere > between > > 2 > > > > and 4 million in the Congo alone in the past few years), and we and > our > > > > newspapers hardly mention these incidents because our emotions are > > > limited). > > > > > > > > All races and cultures are capable of the grossest savagery and murder > > > but, > > > > otherwise, different races and cultures are manifoldly different in > > their > > > > daily lives. Not totally. But different enough for us to take notice > and > > > > discuss each situation intelligently without sounding off and denying > > what > > > > actually happens in the real world. > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > > > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Futurework mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
