I agree, Arthur. And would add that the responsibility to struggle is at both the level of the individual and the community.
BB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 12:44 AM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice inthe job stakes > Agreed, > > REH > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:44 PM > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > inthe job stakes > > > > I say this in a gentle way. We are all carrying much baggage. Some > > personal, some cultural. Some cultures/racial groupings carry relatively > > more. Our job is to make sure that the baggage doesn't get us down. That > > the baggage doesn't cloud our perspective on life that is going on for > each > > of us, each and every day. > > > > arthur > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robert E. Bowd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:45 PM > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > Rabbi Michael Lerner (Tikkun) and Cornel West had an interesting dialogue > in > > this very area. It's available as a book "Jews and Blacks: A Dialogue on > > Race, Religion, and Culture in America" (Penguin). > > > > In the current social moment, I don't think it is possible to compare > Jewish > > culture with Black culture. They have a fundamentally different social > > experience. Due to education and social mobility, many Jews are now > > conservative members of the Establishment and are turning away from the > > liberalism and humanism of their traditional teachings and historical > social > > struggles for acceptance. It is a tension within the culture acknowledged > > by Lerner, most particularly among the young. > > > > To just point to their overrepresentation within the prison population, > the > > experience of Blacks is quite different. The point can be extended to the > > world of work. Lest anyone be inclined to pounce on that example, please > > spare me the 'blame the victim' or eugenics responses. I think they are a > > crock. > > > > Ray makes a valid case for listening to him. Social groups have emotional > > histories that are passed from generation to generation. Anger, > > dehumanization, murder, powerlessness, rage, torture, and the forms of > human > > indignity described by Ray produce self-hatred and anti-social > dysfunction. > > > > My father came to Canada as child labour from England. From the age of 5, > > as an agrarian labourer, his experience of Canada was one of social > > marginalization and low self-esteem. Over a hundred years later, that > > emotional legacy is still a part of my family, having been passed from > > generation to generation. I have observed this in the various offshoots > of > > the family, both in Canada and in the United States, even if they do not > > know the family history. > > > > The example is not on the same scale, as that of Ray, but the > psycho-social > > dynamic is similar. Clinically, I believe the practitioners assign the > term > > PTSD [Post-traumatic stress disorder] to this kind of behaviour. > > > > Bob Bowd > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 5:41 PM > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > So did Malcolm X have anything to say? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Ray Evans Harrell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:57 PM > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > > Do the data. Are you talking about race in the world sense or are you > > > talking about a new fake culture that has been created by destroying the > > > cultures of a single race through the action of slavery? What makes > you > > > think that a Jew who simply changed his name is the same as a man who > had > > > his identity beaten out of him and his family stripped from him for > sale? > > > These people carry skills and somatic cues within their personalities > that > > > they have no idea where they came from or what they mean. Jews aren't > > > anything like that. You have a culture and a religion that is complete > > > from A to Z. They are building theirs from scratch. They are the > only > > > ones who race might have a valid point to. > > > > > > Keith is claiming that I'm being emotional, well, no I was being vulgar > > > since I considered him being bourgeous. My game is tit for tat and not > > > zero-sum. His examples have absolutely nothing to do with American > > blacks. > > > They are of the order of the false syllogism about all Rays have green > > eyes > > > because I do. If we don't wake up and grow up and use our tools then > we > > > are doomed. In order to understand Malcolm you need to walk in his > > > community and know those around him. I did and have. Do the > scientific > > > work. Bring in ALL the data. And then make decisions as informed as > > you > > > can. Otherwise it is just gossip. In short, Keith's story doesn't > work > > > and its taking us down the hole. That is what is going on around the > > > world. Instead of valuing the genius of culture we use the negatives > to > > > destroy us. > > > > > > It is very simple. You can use day laborers to tear down a building in > > > short order but it takes builders and skilled workers years to build > one. > > > What comes down in a day with negativity took years to build. > Ignorance > > is > > > no excuse and certainly no path to building anything but frustration. > > > Today's greatest thinkers believe that Sand Dabs and their preparation > are > > > more important that symphony orchestra's survival. That living in a > > boring > > > paradise is preferable to a great civilization. They can't concentrate > > on > > > more than a page and they are easily overwhelmed rather than fascinated. > > > The article you sent about Richard Florida was the same that I posted > here > > > to silence almost a year ago. And it is not the point either. > > Education > > > and brain development is. Culture builds brains and it can be used for > > > good to build or to tear down in prejudice. I'm building. And it > sure > > > as hell is difficult given the current idiocy. But what more is there? > > > Keith is also building but he just reflexes to the negative and I never > > > support that garbage ever. > > > > > > REH > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:16 AM > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > > > No, but I think Malcolm X was probably on the right track. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 10:47 AM > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another > injustice > > > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arthur, > > > > > > > > You are in favor of apartheid? > > > > > > > > REH > > > > > > > > > > > > Original Message: > > > > ----------------- > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:18:44 -0400 > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another > injustice > > > > inthe job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > I was responding more to Keith's remarks. > > > > > > > > More and more I am coming back to the notion of separate but equal as > > one > > > > way to deal with racial divisions. But this time it is for real. > > > > > > > > Note that I too have known discrimination and hatred. I too have been > > able > > > > to blend into the larger society. Cordell is an all American name. > My > > > > father thought it would give us a better chance in the anti-semitic > > > society > > > > he lived in when he changed the family name from Cohen to Cordell. > > > > > > > > arthur > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Robert E. Bowd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 8:14 AM > > > > To: Cordell, Arthur: ECOM; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Subject: Re: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another > injustice > > > > in the job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > Good Morning Arthur! > > > > > > > > Just so that I do not misunderstand, does your remark refer to Keith's > > > > response, or Ray's? > > > > > > > > As much as I respect Keith's contributions to the list, I have to > thank > > > Ray > > > > for sharing his anguished experience of subordination. I have had > > contact > > > > with AIM activists, and Black activists in the 70s, along the way, and > > > > nothing in Ray's remarks is in conflict with their shared experiences. > > I > > > > would only comment to Keith that emotion, too, is also a way of > knowing > > > the > > > > world. I could comment further, but I choose not to. > > > > > > > > Bob Bowd > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 7:53 AM > > > > Subject: RE: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another > injustice > > in > > > > the job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tough stuff, but hard to disagree with. > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Keith Hudson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 2:21 AM > > > > > To: Ray Evans Harrell > > > > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: [Futurework] Please listen to me! ( was: Another injustice > in > > > > > the job stakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > > > > > At 22:57 25/06/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > > > > >God, this just gets worse. I don't have time to read this shit. > > > Harry > > > > > >were you here in 1954? Keith did you ever experience Apartheid > or > > > > > >Segregation? > > > > > > > > > > Oh dear, you do get carried away don't you? I could take offence at > > > some > > > > > of the immoderate language you so frequently hurl at Harry and me. > Why > > > > > don't you keep to facts instead of being carried away by your > > emotions? > > > I > > > > > confine most of my emotions to my nearest and dearest and working > > > > > colleagues because I haven't a great deal more to spread around. > (And > > > nor > > > > > has any other normal person either.) If more West Indian- and > > > African-born > > > > > UK male citizens in England also confined their emotions to their > > > nearest > > > > > and dearest, and looked after their wives/girl friends and children > > > > instead > > > > > of abandoning them to the state as soon as possible, then so many of > > > them > > > > > wouldn't be occupying our prisons and more people could walk the > > streets > > > > in > > > > > our cities without being mugged. They came here in order to share > our > > > > > prosperity but, *generally*, they can't cope with our particular > type > > of > > > > > culture and the skills that are required for middle-class-type > > > > professions. > > > > > (But, just to make sure you understand me correctly, there are > plenty > > of > > > > > white trash, too -- yes, even in our welfare state with equality of > > > state > > > > > schooling for all -- "high quality" too, according to our Labour > > > > government > > > > > -- who also abandon their wives and children and mug old people in > the > > > > > streets.) > > > > > > > > > > Please listen to me. I believe in complete equality of legal rights > > and > > > > > opportunities for black, white, yellow, male, female, rich, middle > > class > > > > > and poor. Got it? But people are different. Different races of > mankind > > > > have > > > > > different physical, emotional and mental characteristics and, > > > *generally*, > > > > > best live in different sorts of cultures. In terms of western-type > > > society > > > > > in which you and I happen to live, whites are more adept than > > > > > African-derived blacks, and Asians are more adept than whites.(We > > > already > > > > > have two or three Indian billionaires in this country who were > thrown > > > out > > > > > of Uganda by Amin 30 years ago and stripped of their possessions. > > Also, > > > I > > > > > have not heard of any poor adult Chinese person in this country -- > and > > I > > > > > wouldn't mind betting that there are none in San Francisco either.) > > The > > > > > prejudice of whites against blacks in this country is as nothing > > > compared > > > > > with the hatred and trouble between Hindus and Moslems in our > northern > > > > > towns, or Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, or Walloons > > and > > > > > Flemings in Belgium, or the different tribes in Africa where they > > > > regularly > > > > > slaughter one another in their hundreds of thousands (somewhere > > between > > > 2 > > > > > and 4 million in the Congo alone in the past few years), and we and > > our > > > > > newspapers hardly mention these incidents because our emotions are > > > > limited). > > > > > > > > > > All races and cultures are capable of the grossest savagery and > murder > > > > but, > > > > > otherwise, different races and cultures are manifoldly different in > > > their > > > > > daily lives. Not totally. But different enough for us to take notice > > and > > > > > discuss each situation intelligently without sounding off and > denying > > > what > > > > > actually happens in the real world. > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keith Hudson, 6 Upper Camden Place, Bath, England > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Futurework mailing list > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > > > > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Futurework mailing list > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework > > > > _______________________________________________ > Futurework mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
