Ray,
You are right to chastise me fo my response to Harry and I apologize to
Harry.
One of my many flaws is that I tend to think in idealistic terms to the
point where it sometimes occludes my ability to see the trees in the forest.
I am so concerned to have us get a sense of direction as to where we want to
go that I think in terms of already being there and that makes it difficult
if not impossible to think about how to get there.
Selma
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Harry Pollard"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: [Futurework] The world of work
> Selma,
>
> Doesn't Harry have the right to his own story as well? Isn't it
important
> that we see that there is Sparta, Athens and Jerusalem? And that all
> three societies gain something the other does not but that all are
> successful at attaining a balance where civic responsibility happens?
>
> What I would ask would be more along the lines of his complaint about the
> rest of the school where the students are obviously "seperating and
> individuating" in their rebellion against authority. That is an
important
> part of every student's evolution and the West always has provided a
stable
> authority for the students to "bang their heads against" as they are
finding
> themselves.
>
> We found a similar response as Harry in the Summerhill Schools but we also
> found that there was an order to knowledge that could be subverted by
these
> various school cultures. You might be doing harm by expecting or
> requiring responsibility at the wrong time even if you set up a situation
in
> which the students discovered responsibility to be the only efficient way
to
> keep from killing each other. I have found that the current generation
> where children teach each other parallels the sixties drug generation
where
> they were together in the drug experience. In both cases they have
trouble
> with the type of discipline experience that authority gives both direction
> and strength to when the student would lose their way in insecurity. I
> think the current low concentration tolerance level for CEOs ("If it can't
> be said in a page then it isn't worth my time") has to do with the
> independance they experienced for leadership but the lack of discipline
that
> would give them the ability to deal with the "long haul." The
> Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld issue of it being a good war but having no discipline
> for the peace beyond brute force. We have to teach children to have
> success with rhythm and the creative use of long timelines. Solving the
> problem with authority and its resolution so that we can give each other
the
> authority to have our own expertise without being threatened by it is a
very
> important step in the development of the individual.
>
> I think that Harry is a good teacher. I never questioned that. I do
> argue with his surety as to culture and I argue with the limitations of
his
> axioms. I don't think they are complete enough to answer the human
> condition. I would also argue that we all fit into that same limitation
> as well. But are we personally big enough to break the envelope of our
> assumptions and seek real answers?
>
> Ray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Harry Pollard"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Fw: [Futurework] The world of work
>
>
> > Harry,
> >
> > I'm afraid you've missed the point of the embroidery story. For me, it
> > points to the possibility of people working for the sake of working in
the
> > context of a spiritual milieu that generates connection of people to
each
> > other and to a larger whole. And, as Lee points out so eloquently, it
can
> > happen as easily when one is alone and when one is with others.
> >
> > I would love it if we, here on this list, would exchange stories of
> > experiences we have had that approach what Lee is talking about. I
believe
> > that we can create a society in which children grow up learning that
work
> > can have this quality. Of course I must always add the caveat that all
of
> > the institutions must be in balance in order for this to be the
prevailing
> > mode but that doesn't mean that we cannot start to work toward things
like
> > this.
> >
> > I have this experienceoften when I am writing. I haven't done much
writing
> > lately but it is an exhilarating experience that feels as though I'm
> > connected to something enormous; Lee expressed it for me in a way I
> cannot.
> > There is a sense of touching and being touched by something-the words
that
> > come to mind seem to me to beg for misunderstanding but they are the
words
> > that describe it for me- being touched by something cosmic and there is
an
> > overwhelming feeling of wholeness.
> >
> > I have had this experience when I've been washing dishes; it is a sense
of
> > serenity and again, connection; when I am making lunch for my family,
with
> > or without the help of my grandchildren. I have had this feeling while
> > ironing clothes. And I have had this feeling while standing in front of
a
> > class and teaching with all of us being in the same place of connection.
> >
> > I have great difficulty finding the words; Lee does it so very well. I
> would
> > so love to hear from list members who, I'm sure, could describe it in
the
> > various forms it takes for them. Then we might start to think about how,
> in
> > the classroom, in the workplace, we might create an environment that
> > 'allows' for this? 'encourages' this?
> >
> > I now have a strong urge to reread *Flow The Psychology of Optimal
> > Experience * by Mihaly Csikszentimihalyi (chick sent me high ee).
> >
> > I do remember that one of the qualities of this experience that he
> explores
> > is that there is a loss of 'self-consciousness' which is totally
different
> > from a loss of the sense of self-in fact, it enhances the sense of self
> but
> > self in the context of the larger whole.
> >
> > Help! There is so much to this and it is so important.
> >
> > Selma
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If we can understand that that is an experience that can be common and
> > pervasive, we can work toward creating an environment which has that
> > potential.
> > Selma
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Selma Singer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 2:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: [Futurework] The world of work
> >
> >
> > > Selma,
> > >
> > > Your story of the Tikopia reminded me of the free market, where people
> run
> > > their own affairs rather than have the visible hand of the collective
> > > pushing them in the "right" direction.
> > >
> > > As you may recall, my InterStudent High School Program is run like a
> > > competitive free market. Cheating pervades the high schools.
> Practically
> > > everyone cheats because it's the thing one does. So, what to do in
this
> > > highly competitive Program which places responsibility on the
individual
> > > student, and in which students find that the way to handle the
> competition
> > > is to cooperate within their Groups?
> > >
> > > InterStudent encourages the students to lie, cheat and steal. We even
> give
> > > higher grades for creative cheating.
> > >
> > > The result? InterStudent classrooms are certainly the only places in
the
> > > School where there is no cheating. If you were to cheat me, Selma,
> no-one
> > > would condemn you. Rather, they would laugh at me for allowing myself
to
> > be
> > > cheated. The result is a high rate of personal responsibility - so
much
> so
> > > that trying to cheat becomes a waste of time.
> > >
> > > So, the kids stop it. Cheating is so widespread in High Schools that
we
> > had
> > > to take drastic action.
> > >
> > > Tikopia is a different matter. When people have grown up there is no
> need
> > > to monitor them. They will cooperate and be friendly because it makes
> > > sense. They don't need a Big Brother to keep them in line.
> > >
> > > The embroidery story was delightful!
> > >
> > > Harry
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Selma wrote:
> > >
> > > >I sent this excerpt from the Dorothy Lee book "Freedom and Culture"
> last
> > > >February in response to a discussion about 'who should clean the
> toilets'
> > > >which discussion seems to be occurring again.
> > > >
> > > > > Lee has a chapter entitled 'The Joy of Work as Participation'. She
> > writes
> > > >of
> > > > > having made a discovery while she was working on a Christmas
present
> > for
> > > >one
> > > > > of her children on Christmas Eve when it was very late, she was
> > exhausted
> > > > > and "I was working against time, wishing I were in bed."
> > > > >
> > > > > She also speaks of the conflicts she was experiencing at this
time,
> > trying
> > > > > to balance her work as an anthropologist with her responsibilities
> to
> > her
> > > > > two children, her husband and her home. She felt guilty about
> > neglecting
> > > >her
> > > > > professional work and needed to justify whatever she did for the
> > family;
> > > > > making a blanket for the doll crib of her 3-year-old daughter
seemed
> > > > > justifiable because she couldn't afford to buy it.
> > > > >
> > > > > "As I sewed this Christmas Eve, I was suddenly astonished to
> discover
> > that
> > > >I
> > > > > had started to add an entirely unpremeditated and unnecessary
edging
> > of
> > > > > embroidery, and, simultaneously, I was aware of a deep enjoyment
in
> > what I
> > > > > was doing. It was a feeling that had nothing to do with the
pleasure
> > the
> > > > > work would give to my daughter on the morrow; it had nothing to do
> > with a
> > > > > sense of achievement, or of virtue in duty accomplished. And I
knew
> > that I
> > > > > had never liked to embroider. There was no justification for my
> work;
> > yet
> > > >it
> > > > > was the source of such a deep satisfaction, that the late hour and
> my
> > > > > fatigue had ceased to exist for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > At this moment of discovery, I knew that I was experiencing what
it
> > meant
> > > >to
> > > > > be a social being, not merely Dorothy Lee, an individual; I knew
> that
> > I
> > > >had
> > > > > truly become a mother, a wife, a neighbor, a teacher. I realized
> that
> > > >some
> > > > > boundary had disappeared, so that I was working in a social
medium;
> > that I
> > > > > was not working for the future pleasure of a distant daughter, but
> > rather
> > > > > within a relationship unaffected by temporality or physical
absence.
> > What
> > > > > gave meaning to my work was the medium in which I was working-the
> > medium
> > > >of
> > > > > love, in a broad sense. So far, my rationalization and
justification
> > of my
> > > > > work had obscured this meaning, had cut me off from my own social
> > context.
> > > > > It suddently became clear to me that it did not matter whether I
was
> > > > > scrubbing the kitchen floor or darning stockings or zipping up
> > snowsuits;
> > > > > these all had meaning, not in themselves, but in terms of the
> > situation of
> > > > > which they were a part. They contained social value because they
> > > >implemented
> > > > > the value of the social situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > This was a tremendous discovery for me, illuminating in a flash my
> > > > > experience and my thinking. My mind went immediately to the
Tikopia,
> > about
> > > > > whom I had been reading, and I said to myself, 'This is the way
the
> > > >Tikopia
> > > > > work.' I had been puzzled about the motivating forces in the life
of
> > the
> > > > > Tikopia. These were people who were without organized leadership
in
> > work,
> > > > > yet who carried out large undertakings. And without any authority
> to
> > > >impose
> > > > > legislation and mete out punishment, the business of the village
was
> > > >carried
> > > > > out and law and order were maintained. Raymond Firth, the
> > ethnographer,
> > > > > answering the unspoken quesitons of western readers, spoke of
> > obligations,
> > > > > duty, fear of adverse opinion, as motivations. I did not like his
> > choice
> > > >of
> > > > > words, because he spoke of the obligation to perform unpleasant
> tasks,
> > for
> > > > > example, and yet the situations he described brimmed with joy. Now
I
> > saw
> > > > > that the Tikopia did not need external incentives.
> > > > >
> > > > > This was all very well, but when I came to examine my discovery, I
> > could
> > > >not
> > > > > explain it in any rational or acceptable way. My society did not
> > structure
> > > > > working situations as occasions which contained their own
> > satisfaction;
> > > >and
> > > > > it assumed the existence of aggregates or collections of
> > indiividuals,
> > > >not
> > > > > of a social continuum. I had learned to believe in the existence
of
> a
> > > > > distinct self, relating itself externally to work as a means to an
> > end,
> > > >with
> > > > > external incentives and external rewards. yet it was obvious that
if
> I
> > got
> > > > > satsisfaction from participating in a situation, there must be
some
> > > >medium,
> > > > > some continuum, within which this participation can take place, If
> my
> > > >family
> > > > > and I were aspects of one whole; there must be some positive
> > apprehension
> > > >of
> > > > > a continuity which made me an aspect of my family, not a separate
> > member;
> > > >it
> > > > > was not enough to say that my physical being and my sensory
> experience
> > did
> > > > > not in themselves prescribe the limits of the self."
> > > > >
> > > > > She goes on to explore the meaning of self among the Tikopia; I'll
> > leave
> > > > > that for another time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I would just ask the members of this list if they have ever
> > experienced
> > > > > anything similar to what Lee describes as she was working on that
> > blanket.
> > > >I
> > > > > know I have and I have felt it as a gift of enormous proportions;
> > mostly,
> > > >in
> > > > > our society, it occurs in spite of the social and economic
> > environment,
> > > >not
> > > > > because of it. But I strongly believe that it is possible to
> stucture
> > a
> > > > > society and to develop cultural values that make this kind of
> > experience
> > > > > possible and common for everyone.
> > > > > > Selma,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ****************************************************
> > > Harry Pollard
> > > Henry George School of Social Science of Los Angeles
> > > Box 655 Tujunga CA 91042
> > > Tel: (818) 352-4141 -- Fax: (818) 353-2242
> > > http://home.comcast.net/~haledward
> > > ****************************************************
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
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