I want to include some experiences and information. First of all, I have sparred with my sighted friend. He and I are both pretty good, and by sparring, I mean we actually came away with bruises from the various weapons we used. It is not difficult, given the right situation and environment, to actually note the stance of your opponent and the position fo their weapon and block and attack. Many martial arts include a blind fighting test as part of their mastery testing.
Also, I think that there is a big difference between those who have lost their sight and those who never had it to begin with. If I had to guess, Tom, you either never had sight or lost it a long time ago. Dark, you had sight, were familiar with that perspective, then lost it. The reason that this is different is that I can relate to the guesswork thing as a blind person who never had sight. All the mainstream games I've ever played involved some level of guesswork. I remember playing dark forces, the star wars game. I could shoot storm troopers and such, but I couldn't do more without a lot of painstaking effort and some guesswork. I had to use the infinite ammo cheat so I could shoot at walls with my gun like a sort of zappy sonar. I played other games like that too, but I doubt anyone ever heard of take no prisoners, even if it rocked. I think that there are some experiences, backed up by physiology and psychology that blind persons who have been blind from or from near birth, will have differently than will their sighted counterparts. It is documented fact that the auditory and visual cortecies in the brain are similarly structured and proximal to one another. If the visual cortex is unused, the auditory cortex will spread into it and use it for extra processing power, and vice versa. Basically, I thought the thing about blind people having better hearing and such was bull, but then I learned that it isn't necessarily tripe after all, it just depends on how plastic, that is how changeable, the brain is and in what stage blindness occurs. This doesn't mean that blind people can't unite in a common goal, or that sighted and blind people will necessarily play their games separately forever, but there is a difference in perspective. I'll use the very gap-bridging game of Swamp, briefly. I play like a typical blind person, because I am. I shoot from afar or close up with sound. My wife tries to use both, and she usually spazzes when a zombie is close up, and she's getting better, therefore, at aiming by sound. My friend, however, uses his assault rifle to attract a hoarde of zombies close enough to see, then blasts them all with pinpoint accuracy because he can see. A very accessible game, played with three different perspectives. The fact is that we all bring different abilities and disabilities to the table. My wife's spazzing at zombies is her disability. My friend's inability to aim with sound is his. My blindness and lack of quick visual accuracy is mine. That, in my oppinion, is the way life works. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/25/12, dark <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Tom. > > both true, however one thing I want to avoid n any discussion with > disability and effort is the idea of privelidged experience, that there is a > > "blind experience" of the world whicch nobody else can understand or > participate in, even when that experience has nothing to do with blindness. > > i have for instance read papers by peoplke who claime that blind people, > (and by their implication All! blind people), have an understanding and > experience of music beyond everyone else. To me, this is exclusivist > rubbish, sinse I've met some pretty tone deaf blind people and some amazing > > sighted musicians,, and just as we must acknolidge that sighted people can! > > play audio games, it is equally true that there are experiences which > blindness doesn't affect. > > perhaps the example of text games was a bad one because of cost, but music, > > playing audio games, communicating in an auditory way, learning massage, > would probably be different. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Thomas Ward" <[email protected]> > To: "Gamers Discussion list" <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:01 PM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game > > >> Hi Dark, >> >> Sure. However, my basic point is that you have some vision therefore >> simple 2d graphics vs 3d graphics makes a huge difference in how you >> play said games. I have absolutely no site so the graphical >> representation on the screen makes absolutely no difference to me. I >> have to put the same effort into playing no matter what kind of >> graphics are used because all I have is the audio output. If the audio >> output is terrible I have no access at all and if the audio output is >> great then there is a higher degree of access. >> >> I do agree in some cases some things are equally accessible between >> sighted and blind consumers, but I still maintain most things do >> require more effort as a rule of thumb. If we use your example of text >> games with NVDA I have to route the review cursor to the bottom of the >> screen, arrow up to where the text begins, and begin reading it line >> by line. This doesn't make text games unaccessible to play, but is a >> lot more inconvenient than reading it with your eyes. Therefore with >> some screen readers, the way the text is presented, may require a bit >> more effort to get access to than your average sighted user. >> >> Then, of course, we are over looking the big issue itself. Playing >> text games, gamebooks, whatever requires a screen reader. Up until >> very recently when screen readers like NVDA were developed a person >> would have to shell out a lot of cash for Window-Eyes, Jaws, >> Supernova, etc which would be considerably more cost to the enduser. >> While we can't measure that as extra effort per say it is a factor in >> determining accessibility. The price or cost of access is as bad as >> extra effort in my book. >> >> Cheers! >> >> >> On 7/25/12, dark <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Hi Tom. >>> I'm afraid I utterly disagree that everything! takes more effort for a >>> visually impared person. Even if we restrict ourselves to just games, >>> something like boppit, a mainstream audio game, or indeed any audio game >>> >>> is >>> >>> by it's very nature equal. Also, though some brouser games and games >>> that >>> rely on apprehending a complex layout of information might be said to >>> require somewhat more effort, the case seems less so for somethin that >>> is >>> purely text based and completely accessible, ie the screen reader can >>> access >>> >>> the text instantly with one key press. thus a lot of interactive >>> fiction, >>> games like Eamon, gamebooks with good layouts and buttons such as lone >>> wolf, >>> >>> choiceof games or the ff project wouldn't seem to be this way. >>> >>> though it is true that audio games are often developed and played by >>> visually impared people, there is nothing to stop sighted people from >>> playing them either, as proved by the few sighted people who do! play >>> and >>> develope audio games such as Richard and Sander from audiogames.net, , >>> which >>> >>> is exactly why they are accessible, and also why I'd strongly encourage >>> audio games to be considdered as simply a genre of games with merit on >>> their >>> >>> own groundds, rather than just! an accessible alternative for the poor >>> segrigated blind people to play in their little getto. >>> >>> As to sound in 3D games, the issue certainly isn't that I can't! it's >>> simply >>> >>> that the amount of effort involved as compared to playing a graphical >>> game, >>> >>> even with my extremely limited vision makes the games not only not worth >>> playing, but also frankly frustrating as hell due to low information. >>> >>> if I play a game, i don't want to have to use guess work about what is >>> happening, or keep hitting directions at random to work out where I >>> should >>> go, then use massive memorization for game objects, such a thing goes >>> beyond >>> >>> the point of fun for me. >>> >>> Yes, i might have to play more slowly, and occasionally I'll get hit or >>> otherwise run into something and think "what the hell was that" and need >>> >>> to >>> >>> take time learning how to avoid it, but I generally want the possibility >>> >>> to >>> >>> sit down to a game and actually perceive most of it's objects and >>> atmosphere, rather than always be at the level of guess work. >>> >>> This is why I'd much rather play something like original Mega man, than a >>> >>> 3D >>> >>> brawler, sinse in Mega man, most of the objects in the game will be >>> instantly visible and I can work out my own stratogies and ways of >>> dealing >>> with them. >>> >>> This isn't a cryticism of anyone's playing method, just an explanation. >>> >>> Beware the grue! >>> >>> Dark. >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Gamers mailing list __ [email protected] >>> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >>> [email protected]. >>> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >>> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >>> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]. >>> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >>> list, >>> please send E-mail to [email protected]. >>> >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ [email protected] >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> [email protected]. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the >> list, >> please send E-mail to [email protected]. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ [email protected] > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > [email protected]. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to [email protected]. > --- Gamers mailing list __ [email protected] If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [email protected]. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [email protected].
