Hi Peter, hi folks,
even though the topic is almost off again, still one more comment from my
side ... as I don´t get to write everyday, I am a little slower in replying
than
most others here seem to be :-(
> Somewhere in this discussion, the premisse popped up that parasite-loads do
> tell something about the wild-caught/ captive bred status of animals.It
doesn'
> t. Parasite loads do tell something about the stress animals are exposed
to.
> ...
Yes, I can absolutely agree with this statement, and didn´t want to suggest
that the hight amount of parasites found in the fecals makes for a sure proof
of the WC status. BUT ... as often WC animals tend to have more of them,
there is a statistic probabilty for these animals to be WC ... in my opinion.
> Now, I have seen the alledged breeding facilities of the breeder mentioned
> myself. Only once, so it's just this one moment in 1997 I can tell you
about.
> It looked as if the geckoes bred well there. He had loads of egg shells to
> vouch for that (he has to show these to the authorities to proof the
animals
> are captive bred). But, as there are basically territorial animals in
large
> ...
Again I can agree with you to the point that I, too, was convinced at that
time
that I had bought CB animals which had had a lot of natural daylight and
lived in
large groups, and therefore had the typical WC coloration and the wounds
that many WC often carry away after smaller fights. And I talked to the
breeder
personally several times at different occasions and was trusting in his words.
So the situation as I see it - today - is the following:
I don´t know exactly where the animals sold now in the US and europe come
from, but the number that are up and about are MUCH too large to be bred in
any facility of the size I have seen on the pictures. Anyone who ever tried to
breed ornata, cepediana and guimbeaui can tell you that they are quite slow in
growing and don´t lay too many eggs per year - my personal account for ornata
is (over the last four years) about 12 to 18 eggs (maximum!) per year and
female,
and of these an average of 14 hatch and reach an age to be given away
properly.
Taking in account the additional losses breeding in groups will bring, I will
have
to breed with about 50 females to get 500 animals to give away. They will take
between 12 and 16 months (at least) to reach adulthood, and feed on about 6
large crix a week ... amounting to a total of 3.300 crix per week and over
170.000
crix per year to be fed (including the parents). If you wonder what it takes
to
breed those, go and ask a live-food dealer ... you will find it´s not THAT
cheap at all.
Then the costs for heating, lighting, supplements, the cages and spare lamps
...
let´s just say it´s another fine sum you will find here. And then they are
sold at 125.-
DM retail ... making for about 80.- DM (40$) dealer´s price ... I for myself
can´t
image what to do to make a profit even from that. If I am lucky, I manage to
get
back just about my food costs every year, even though I manage to breed a
large
lot of Phelsumas every year. Hey, wasn´t there someone on this list to
proclaim
that breeders and money mix well ...? If so, then please give me advice - I
just don´t
manage to make profit of my hobby ... what am I doing wrong?
So, my conclusion:
On the fairs I have seen and been to, or heard of, and in the shops I know,
have been to or have heard of (all worldwide), must have been over 500
animals of
each of the three species mentioned above available in the last year. In my
opinion they cannot have been bred in this number at the facility I have seen
pictures of. So either the breeder has bad luck and is mixed in with a large
wave of
illegal "CBs" (in competition with his wares), or ... ? I got no proofs, but
I just do
some reasoning - I hope that I now made clear that I cannot accuse this
breeder,
but that I believe that many of the animals sold are of very dubious sources.
I
dunno, maybe there is some secret and superb breeding facility somewhere in
this world, but mother nature seems to be the best source still ;-)
OK, done with the brain dump -
cheers, Hartmut
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