Hello Henry, I'll speak of my personal experience with J.
My first encounter with the language was around 2015 where I'd seen some one liner solutions in the Euler project forums. For those that don't know that project, it's like hackerrank but with mathematical problems to be solved via any programming language. Back in the day I was using python and prolog, but was always amazed by the shortness of J solutions. Then I found all the mathy books written by Ken in J, and it was aparrent that it was easy to express mathematical ideas in this language. As for computing vs proving, I think that both are two aspects of mathematics. From the Curry-Howard correspondence we know that programs are proofs and the other way round. That being said, at this point I don't think that J can be used as a proof assistant, as Coq, OCaml or Agda: it lacks a strong typing system that is needed for such things, afaik. I don't mind if the term "mathematical" would be suppressed in order not to draw away US programmers that had bad experiences with math, and stress the "computation" part. But I also think that the mathematical roots of the language shouldn't be forgotten or hidden so that the neophytes dont get scared. I guess this discussion has to do much with the marketing of the language, and I don't know much about that, so I'll stop here. Thanks again for the great ideas shared in the discussion. Best, Michail --- Michail L. Liarmakopoulos, MSc On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 19:38 Henry Rich <[email protected]> wrote: > Couldn't it be that J is used by mathematical programmers because it's > touted as a mathematical language? > > Most of the population of the US considers math 'too hard' and will not > touch anything tainted by it. I think programmers (in the US) by and > large share this tendency. > > And I disagree that people doing non-math will use non-J. I use J for > simulations, games, and pretty much everything where I get to choose the > language. I use it for the productivity, not the mathiness. > > In fact, I've never been able to use J to do real math, that is, to > prove theorems. It's a notation of computation, not a notation of > mathematics. A tool of thought, not a tool of proof. I can use J to > help with understanding a problem, but I don't have a big enough set of > identities to make it valuable in proof. > > J is especially good for math people, but it's not caviar to the > general. Un-mathy highschool students can be writing useful J programs > in a few days - much faster than with Java. > > Henry Rich > > On 1/23/2022 1:04 PM, Michail L. Liarmakopoulos wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Personally I think that while J is a general purpose language, it surely > > attracts more mathematically oriented programmers. > > > > Also I think the definition Bob mentioned earlier stems from the fact > that > > J is linked to APL and to the "notation as a tool of thought" of Ken. > > > > So I don't think that mentioning or promoting the mathematical edge that > > the language has (that makes it a strong competitor to python+numpy, > Julia > > or R) is a disadvantage. > > > > Programmers not interested in solving mathematical problems on a computer > > will choose a different language either way, such as C, C++, Java, > python, > > Golang, etc. > > > > Best, > > Michail > > > > --- > > Michail L. Liarmakopoulos, MSc > > > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 17:32 Raul Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 10:41 AM Henry Rich <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> I strongly recommend removing the word 'mathematical' from the > >>> one-line description of J. Most programmers are not highly, or > >>> even moderately, mathematical, and people will be afraid that J is > >>> for somebody else. > >> Many are not, but many are. > >> > >> That said, those that are almost invariably have a specific focus > >> (machine learning, finance, statistics, graphics, logistics, etc.) > >> > >> And, mathematics is itself a huge field where individuals invariably > >> specialize in their own niche. > >> > >> (So I am not disagreeing with your recommendation -- I am instead > >> thinking that the mathematical aspects need some focus and specifics > >> to be relevant.) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> -- > >> Raul > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
