> A serious marketing campaign seems likely to be multi-targeted. That's the heart of the matter. The audience is unlikely to be asking "what is J?" They'll want to know "Is J good for what I want to do?" I suggest pose a question in bold typeface, and then list 5 to 10 answers from actual J users, giving their job titles or occupations. E.g:
*What Is J Good For?* "Teaching math principles and techniques essential to our degree course" I.C. (Instructor, remedial math, first year Electronic Engineering, XYZ University) "Teaching how to use a computer (creatively)" I.A.C. (teacher, K-12) "Playing with topics expounded by Veritasium on YouTube" I. Clark (computer hobbyist, ret'd) On Mon, 24 Jan 2022 at 00:28, ethiejiesa via General <[email protected]> wrote: > Interesting discussion! > > In a way, it sounds like we've raised a kind of optimization problem: What > is > the "best" one-liner description of J? > > It also occurs to me that this question is subtler than at first blush! > Instead > of offering up support for any particular "side" let me share some > questions: > > * Best what? > > Presumably, "attract more users;" however, what kind of users? Surely, > one-time > users isn't the goal, but it also sounds like people don't want to tailor > strongly for potential hard-core members. > > * Best when? > > In the recent Array Cast release, Aaron Hsu brought up a good, relevant > point: > We're at a particular (early?) point in the popularity curve of J and array > languages in general. > > The "best" one-liner at this point in time is probably different than the > "best" 10 years from now, when J will certainly have millions of daily > active > hackers :D > > * Best where? > > As Raul points out, J probably does and will intersect with a large > cross-section of people and disciplines. A serious marketing campaign seems > likely to be multi-targeted. > > Actually, it occurs to me that maybe J has the advantage of *not* looking > like > a programming language, making it potentially appealing to non-programming > folk > that just want to Get Things Done. Potential to steal the Excel market? > > > Depending on where this one-liner will get used, it might be fun to A/B > test > different ideas! I'm sure some here have the statistical chops to actually > do > this correctly. > > > - B. Wilson > > > robert therriault <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > This discussion has provided a lot of information to me, not least of > which is that Brian has supplied a polling tool that I had know idea > existed! > > > > Listening to the different points of view, I think that I will drop the > 'mathematical' from the opening line because I actually prefer Henry's > wording of 'J is a language for describing computation', although I am also > thinking about 'J is a language for quickly getting a computer to do what > you want'. > > > > I also know that mathematics will be brought up in a friendlier way > later in the script. I have a section that shows the rational type in > action and the ways that that can make fractional arithmetic easier. The > rational section is based on this previous video of mine > https://youtu.be/9_j4iMeAa7s and think that it's content will appeal to > both math phobics, who would want an easier way to work with fractions, and > philics who might see it as a way to explore continued fractions in a more > intuitive way. > > > > I think that the main purpose of this video will be to give someone who > has not seen J before just enough interest that they will investigate > further. This is why I have referred to it as a billboard video. > > > > If we find we have a number of audiences we are trying to attract, it > may be an idea to provide different billboards, although we would be > relying on the audience to self select the billboard of interest. I am not > suggesting that is what we do, I am just presenting an alternative. My > preference is one video that is general enough to appeal and interest > anyone who may have a use for the language. > > > > Anyway thanks for all of the input. In these areas, more discussion is > useful for the diversity of views. > > > > Cheers, bob > > > > > On Jan 23, 2022, at 13:40, 'Pascal Jasmin' via General < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Not just to back up Henry publicly, but > > > > > > J is a great "information theory" language suitably replacing sql. > Sql is not "marketed" as math. While q/k is marketed for "information > theory", J is more powerful, and, I've found, easily enhanced to provide > q's syntactic sugar for information processing. J's user defined modifiers > are power. Power that goes well beyond sql/q/k and beyond "just math". > So, the "computational" adjective is deserved, IMO. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, January 23, 2022, 01:38:20 p.m. EST, Henry Rich < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Couldn't it be that J is used by mathematical programmers because it's > > > touted as a mathematical language? > > > > > > Most of the population of the US considers math 'too hard' and will > not > > > touch anything tainted by it. I think programmers (in the US) by and > > > large share this tendency. > > > > > > And I disagree that people doing non-math will use non-J. I use J for > > > simulations, games, and pretty much everything where I get to choose > the > > > language. I use it for the productivity, not the mathiness. > > > > > > In fact, I've never been able to use J to do real math, that is, to > > > prove theorems. It's a notation of computation, not a notation of > > > mathematics. A tool of thought, not a tool of proof. I can use J to > > > help with understanding a problem, but I don't have a big enough set > of > > > identities to make it valuable in proof. > > > > > > J is especially good for math people, but it's not caviar to the > > > general. Un-mathy highschool students can be writing useful J > programs > > > in a few days - much faster than with Java. > > > > > > Henry Rich > > > > > > On 1/23/2022 1:04 PM, Michail L. Liarmakopoulos wrote: > > >> Hello, > > >> > > >> Personally I think that while J is a general purpose language, it > surely > > >> attracts more mathematically oriented programmers. > > >> > > >> Also I think the definition Bob mentioned earlier stems from the fact > that > > >> J is linked to APL and to the "notation as a tool of thought" of Ken. > > >> > > >> So I don't think that mentioning or promoting the mathematical edge > that > > >> the language has (that makes it a strong competitor to python+numpy, > Julia > > >> or R) is a disadvantage. > > >> > > >> Programmers not interested in solving mathematical problems on a > computer > > >> will choose a different language either way, such as C, C++, Java, > python, > > >> Golang, etc. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> Michail > > >> > > >> --- > > >> Michail L. Liarmakopoulos, MSc > > >> > > >> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022, 17:32 Raul Miller <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > >>> On Sun, Jan 23, 2022 at 10:41 AM Henry Rich <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >>>> I strongly recommend removing the word 'mathematical' from the > > >>>> one-line description of J. Most programmers are not highly, or > > >>>> even moderately, mathematical, and people will be afraid that J is > > >>>> for somebody else. > > >>> Many are not, but many are. > > >>> > > >>> That said, those that are almost invariably have a specific focus > > >>> (machine learning, finance, statistics, graphics, logistics, etc.) > > >>> > > >>> And, mathematics is itself a huge field where individuals invariably > > >>> specialize in their own niche. > > >>> > > >>> (So I am not disagreeing with your recommendation -- I am instead > > >>> thinking that the mathematical aspects need some focus and specifics > > >>> to be relevant.) > > >>> > > >>> Thanks, > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Raul > > >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > >>> > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > > > > > > -- > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > https://www.avg.com > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
