>
>
>
>Nope I'm not missing your point.  I'm just waiting for the salient points to
>come out.  This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring.  You've said:
>
>[Andy]
>
>> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>>
And?  Youre point?  I don't want to use DVSL.  So what?

>
>and Jon has said:
>
>[Jon]
>
>>I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>>
>>I can't stand XSL...
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he
>picked up my "bike shed" argument.  I suspect you are too.  If we want to
>see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table.
>So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached
>to the color of their shed.  However it's hard to even judge what would make
>a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal.  If there are real
>discrepencies, let's spell them out.
>
Its because the only issue is whether the Maven guys will collaborate.. 
. the rest is all crap.  Through collaboration XSL support would be 
inherent. so thats crap too.  

>
>
>One merged project?  Let's work out some more detailed proposals before
>chasing at shadows.
>

One merged project + supporting DVSL for those who like DVSL + XSL for 
those who like standards.

I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!

-Andy

>
>
>>
>>Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>>
>>>I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
>>>always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
>>>would.  :)
>>>
>>>Let the community decide.  If 51% of the developers
>>>want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
>>>use.  If you don't like it, prove that your
>>>alternative is better.  But dropping a whole project
>>>because of a detail is needless.
>>>
>>>- Morgan
>>>
>>>--- Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
>>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
>>>>>
>>>>centipede on the projects I
>>>>
>>>>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
>>>>>
>>>>togheter.
>>>>
>>>>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
>>>>>
>>>>standard - regardless of how
>>>>
>>>>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
>>>>>
>>>>supports both.
>>>>
>>>>>Costin
>>>>>
>>>>You guys are so funny.
>>>>
>>>>Bike Sheds
>>>>----------
>>>>
>>>>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
>>>>the Jakarta website. But
>>>>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
>>>>easy to use and took away
>>>>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
>>>>it all over the world.
>>>>
>>>>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
>>>>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
>>>>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
>>>>but no one changed the
>>>>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
>>>>Anakia sites on
>>>>Sourceforget.net all the time.
>>>>
>>>>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
>>>>Maven. Just like with
>>>>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
>>>>aren't doing the work and
>>>>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
>>>>shed and is thus not
>>>>valid in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
>>>>learned that you can't
>>>>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
>>>>on it. Given our
>>>>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
>>>>argue for something like
>>>>that. You hypocrite.
>>>>
>>>>Learning Technology
>>>>-------------------
>>>>
>>>>The argument about learning minor technologies to
>>>>make money is so silly it
>>>>is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
>>>>and have been
>>>>responsible for hiring or directly approving the
>>>>hiring of about 50-60
>>>>people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
>>>>but not small either.
>>>>
>>>>Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
>>>>knows minor technology
>>>>X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
>>>>most about was that the
>>>>person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
>>>>to learn something new.
>>>>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
>>>>aptitude, I probably would not
>>>>have hired you anyway.
>>>>
>>>>On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
>>>>the box because everyone
>>>>else is doing it would make me instantly not like
>>>>your personality. I like
>>>>people who are free thinkers and who can think
>>>>outside of the box. Software
>>>>is an art form, not something that you can just
>>>>cookie cutter produce (and
>>>>have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
>>>>free thinkers that have
>>>>the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
>>>>outside of the box shows that
>>>>you care about the code and systems you are
>>>>creating.
>>>>
>>>>People
>>>>------
>>>>
>>>>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
>>>>more and more familiar.
>>>>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
>>>>Peter Donald (credit to
>>>>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
>>>>joining the PMC helped).
>>>>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>>>>
>>>>:-)
>>>>
>>>>-jon
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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>>>
>>>=====
>>>Morgan Delagrange
>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>>>http://axion.tigris.org
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>>Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
>>>http://health.yahoo.com
>>>
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