Dear Post-persons: Hello ... and it will be a while learning even the fundaments of J but well worth it; please let me know if there are some relatively simple for beginners web sites of educational cast you especially like. Or meetings in the NY area.
These posts are fascinating and also will take a while to absorb. I chose this one to reply to and note that in the 70's and 80's we noticed that (using "Claim Structure Grammar" ideas and tools) both persons and programs which were going askew (as to communicating with people or automata) had certain semosyntactic loadings - and software characteristics indeed, which seemed to correspond with people (flesh ones) who were ill or otherwise off their own bases (and deserved assistance if wished). Adin automated some of this in APL with experimental natural language parsers, much more kudos to matrices of course ... and now I am thinking J would be such a good home base. I have much to learn. Hopefully to contribute also; meanwhile this discussion is very stimulating. And p.s. I see much in the above paragraph that might raise skeptical eyebrows, but that's probably for later. Warm regards, LDMF. cn Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:15 PM, bob therriault <[email protected]>wrote: > Thanks for the great feedback Ric, > > I'll give you my responses/rationalizations, keeping in mind that at this > early stage there will be many changes. > > 0) The representation of the noun argument (as opposed to a noun that might > be attached to a conjunction) is certainly up for discussion. At one point I > thought I would focus more on the sentence itself without the argument, but > thought that having the intermediate values was more useful and that of > course required an argument. Changing the linking to a curved arrow would > certainly differentiate the application to an argument from the result of a > verb. > > 1) I am guessing that I put the argument on the bottom and the result on > top through the influence of the Roger Stokes diagrams that I had seen in > Learning J. I don't have any particular attachment to either direction, but > must admit that I find the sideways 'tree representation' of J verbs > difficult to wrap my head around. As an aside, since I am in Canada and I > think you are in New Zealand, it would stand to reason that we would invert > each others views ;) > > 2) I chose yellow for / to represent an adverb working on a verb. The verb > + is blue (I felt it was working dyadically within the single argument > through the influence of /). The result of the +/ does get represented as a > monadic verb when it is projected into the fork. I felt that the composite > verb +/ should be broken out into yellow (adverb) and blue (dyadic verb) > rather than representing them in green (which is the view that the fork has > of them). > > 3) I have always thought of trains as a type of implicit conjunction. I > think it came from Henry Rich's J for C programmers [1], although to be > accurate he refers to forks and hooks as modifiers. I agree that the result > is a verb, but then the result of u...@v is also a verb (and @ is a > conjunction). Forming the train as a conjunction, lets me imagine verbs > taking on different roles according to their position, the same way a true > conjunction would affect they way they interacted with the arguments. If the > fork 'conjunction' was part of another conjunction, it would be represented > as a verb in the same way that +/ was represented by green square inside it > even though it is composed of + and / . Believe me, I'm way out on a limb > with this one, so I really look forward to more discussion. > > Cheers, bob > > [1] http://www.jsoftware.com/help/jforc/compound_verbs.htm#_Toc191734374 > On 2010-10-12, at 3:01 PM, Sherlock, Ric wrote: > > > Bob, > > I think you're right that a simple, attractive, interactive parser for J > sentences may ease the introduction of newcomers to some of J's concepts. > > > > Here is some feedback: > > > > I like the visual "explosion" of a placeholder to its components, however > I find the similarity of the visual effect linking the gray graphic > (representing the Noun) to the monadic verbs +/ and # confusing. Perhaps > something more directional (like an curved arrow) could be used to show > where the noun is inserted into the sentence. > > > > IMO it would be more intuitive if the diagram worked from top to bottom > rather than bottom to top (iow the arguments were fed in from the top and > the result produced at the bottom). > > > > Why does the exploded graphic of +/ have a yellow background? It is a > monadic verb in this sentence, so shouldn't it have a green background? > > > > You describe a fork as a conjunction. Do you mean this in the same way as > say @ is a conjunction? If so then I think this is incorrect. According to > the dictionary, a train of any length is a verb not a conjunction [1] in > which case the box with the red background should also have a green > background (it is a monadic verb). > > > > [1] http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dictf.htm > > > >> From: bob therriault > >> Sent: Wednesday, 13 October 2010 09:45 > >> > >> Hi Devon, > >> > >> If the topic of representing array thinking comes up, the last three > posts on > >> my blog express some fumbling about I've been doing in the last two > weeks. > >> > >> http://bobtherriault.wordpress.com/ > >> > >> Most recent is a screencast of a J 'training-wheels' environment that > may be > >> achievable with the new beta. > >> > >> Cheers, bob > >> > >> On 2010-10-12, at 11:50 AM, Devon McCormick wrote: > >> > >>> Here I'd been thinking about discussing the NY Times article cited by > Roger > >>> at tonight's NYCJUG, but it fell off the list. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 1:43 PM, bob therriault > >> <[email protected]>wrote: > >>> > >>>> Sorry, I hadn't listened to the entire discussion before I posted. > >>>> > >>>> Even more pertinent are the last 12 minutes where the effect of > 'number > >>>> words' in language indicates a greater potential for conceptually > >>>> development of mathematics. The final thoughts in the last minute of > the > >>>> video indicate that it may be possible to unlock cognitive abilities > by > >>>> describing numbers in different ways. I would think that would suggest > that > >>>> learning an array language such as J would be a requirement for true > >>>> programming expertise. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, bob > >>>> > >>>> On 2010-10-12, at 10:03 AM, bob therriault wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> This video discussion of the effect of language on thought, recently > >>>> appeared on 3 quarks daily, a philosophy science blog. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2010/10/language-and-thought.html > >>>>> > >>>>> At about the 12 minute mark, differences in Russian and English > speakers' > >>>> perception of the colour blue is noted, possibly due to the fact that > >>>> Russian has two words for blue and English has one. If language > affects > >>>> cognition at this very low level of processing, it would suggest that > >> higher > >>>> levels such as problem solving would be even more influenced by the > ways > >>>> ideas are described. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, bob > >>>>> > >>>>> On 2010-10-12, at 7:36 AM, Roger Hui wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> There is another presentation of the same idea in > >>>>>> > >>>> > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.htm?pagewanted=all > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: Stephen Taylor <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Date: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 5:32 > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Jgeneral] Looking for links - online or off - between > J > >>>> and natural language (example: English). > >>>>>> To: General forum <[email protected]> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Linda > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'd be interested to publish in *Vector* anything you write on > >>>>>>> this topic. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Don't know if this is helpful, but a while back we blogged about > >>>>>>> a professor > >>>>>>> at Stanford working close to this field > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> http://vectoreditor.blogspot.com/2009/06/how-language-shapes- > >>>>>>> thought.html > >>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>> Stephen > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 3 October 2010 10:14, linda falkoff > >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks so much Roger and Brian - I plan to click on the links, > >>>>>>> and hope to > >>>>>>>> come back re the work on "software linguistics" Adin and I > >>>>>>> were doing in > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> 80's and happily interacting with Ken and APL as well - I note > >>>>>>> online that > >>>>>>>> sl field has taken off (in a good sense) and there are likely > >>>>>>> connections.> > >>>>>>>> Also it may be interesting to take pics of the "Claim > >>>>>>> Structure Grammars" I > >>>>>>>> built for my computing / info. sci advisor Ted Glaser in > >>>>>>> the 70's, > >>>>>>>> because > >>>>>>>> it would be very nice if it relates generally to J. I > >>>>>>> want to carry forth > >>>>>>>> with the "family" projects. Will be pleased to partner in studies, > >>>>>>>> conversations ... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> You give a lot of clues .. very nice. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> LDMF. > >>>>>>>> *Respectful Interfaces* . When googling use quotes! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Roger Hui > >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Welcome to the J Forums, Linda. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> As far as Ken's work, there isn't much explicitly written > >>>>>>>>> on the subject. I know of the following items: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - http://keiapl.org/anec/#algebra > >>>>>>>>> from "Algebra: An Algorithmic Treatment", 1972. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - He modeled the organization of the dictionary part > >>>>>>>>> of "J Introduction and Dictionary" > >>>>>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/contents.htm > >>>>>>>>> and before that "A Dictionary of APL", > >>>>>>>>> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=36983.36984 > >>>>>>>>> on the organization of an English dictionary, > >>>>>>>>> in particular the American Heritage Dictionary of the > >>>>>>>>> English Language. (Earlier versions were called > >>>>>>>>> "A Dictionary of the APL Language" and "The ISI > >>>>>>>>> [Iverson Software Inc.] Dictionary of J") > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - Of course, he uses noun/verb/adverb etc. > >>>>>>>>> where more traditionally in this context the > >>>>>>>>> terms array/function/operator are used. > >>>>>>>>> This has been very helpful as for example most > >>>>>>>>> every one gets "adverb" (run quickly, eat quickly, ...; > >>>>>>>>> run quickly, run slowly, run directly, ...) whereas > >>>>>>>>> "operator" tends to be confusing and mysterious. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: linda falkoff <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, October 1, 2010 7:43 > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [Jgeneral] Looking for links - online or off - > >>>>>>> between J and > >>>>>>>>> natural language (example: English). > >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> Cc: [email protected] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Best wishes up front - > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> and can you please share some links you like on the topic > >>>>>>> of J > >>>>>>>>>> and natural > >>>>>>>>>> language, English or otherwise? > >>>>>>>>>> Sorry, post is redundant with email subject line. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Many thanks, LDMF, *Respectful Interfaces*. > >>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>> > >>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Devon McCormick, CFA > >>> ^me^ at acm. > >>> org is my > >>> preferred e-mail > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
