I think the idea of some info at the start has its merits. I get this kind of info about some Linux features in some apps. Tool tips can be interesting even if most of the time they are not. It is something like in J with demos/labs/helps that you may think you have seen it all. Then visiting it you see there are a lot of new stuff there. Also revisiting a something you tried a long time ago and either misunderstood or had no need for may be good. Util that points toward things of interest like tool tips are hard to do well.
2011/2/15 Ian Clark <[email protected]> > Thanks, Ric. That's just the explanation I needed. > > If I can have a noun (as I do now with j602, called PROMPTS) then I'd > like to maintain it in startup.ijs rather than base.cfg, because I'm > always editing startup.ijs (it's the first line in my PROMPTS). But if > I can have only one out of noun/verb then I'd say verb for its added > flexibility. > > But hey, it's no big deal -- just one more alias on my desktop: "base.cfg". > > As for the need for welcome messages, I'd say (from extensive HF > laboratory investigation of novice behaviour in the 80s -- which may > no longer pertain for a generation brought up on bad HF design) that > the requirement is a negative one: not to be faced with a blank screen > (especially one with the cryptic title "Term") without some context > being cued. Eg: 'enter something in J:' > > Recall that not 1 but 2 windows appear when you click the green J: a > unix window too (which certainly does furnish context, most > commendably too). It almost shouts at you: "type here..." > > I would also warn against generalising from one's own usage > preference. We all know features that are so badly designed the first > thing we do is turn them off. Talking paperclips, anyone? And -- heck > -- who needs the Accessibility options? <yes yes I'm kidding...> > > But even if one's sympathies lie with one's expert audience, there's a > case for spoonfeeding the novice user. > > My own requirement may not be shared by many. I use J for several > regular routine tasks, and it helps me to have a prompt of the chief > tasks as re-inputtable lines. A wizzkid would be ashamed to use what > he'd see as a crutch... but I prefer to think of it as the trim-wheel, > when you fly a light aircraft. Pilots get no reward for saying "hey -- > who needs the trim-wheel?" > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Ric Sherlock <[email protected]> wrote: > > My initial post at the start of this thread was more about how to > > create a cross-JFE mechanism for displaying a default Welcome message > > on startup - along with a way to turn it off. If done right it will > > also allow users/developers to create their own custom startup > > message. > > > > As I see it the ShowWelcome in base.cfg is required so that the users > > can turn off the default welcome message that each JFE will provide. > > Setting a Welcome noun to empty in startup.ijs won't help if the JFE > > (that loads after startup.ijs) then repopulates it. > > > > Of course there may be other models that work too, including setting > > the welcome message or verb in a .cfg file as Chris suggests. > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Basically sounds ok. > >> > >> I was assuming user would create Welcome in _z_ (or _base_?) not _j_ , > >> but I don't know if that's better, apart from a gut-feel that system > >> classes ought to remain untouched. > >> > >> Must Welcome be a noun, or can it be a verb instead? Might both be > >> allowed (whence different names would be needed?) > >> > >> Don't fully grasp the need for ShowWelcome in base.cfg. The welcome > >> msg can be disabled altogether by having startup.ijs set it to empty. > >> What's gained from having the user set/check a cfg as well as > >> startup.ijs -- which is effectively a user profile too? Are we > >> catering here for an administrator who needs the power to deny > >> facilities to the user? AFAICS the only reason for this facility is > >> because startup.ijs gets executed "too early" in j701 and the > >> architecture won't allow it to be executed any later. > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Ric Sherlock <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> I think startup.ijs could still do the job. How does this sound? > >>> > >>> * User creates custom Welcome_j_ in their startup.ijs. > >>> * JFE creates Welcome_j_ (if it doesn't already exist) with its > >>> default message) > >>> * Welcome_j_ is "smoutput"ed to session if ShowWelcome (in base.cfg) > >>> is set to 1. > >>> > >>> To get this to work across JFEs there needs to be some agreement that > >>> it is desirable (or at least no disagreement that it is undesirable). > >>> > >>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>> Got it to work by adding 2 lines to the bottom of verb: main in: > >>>> ~addons/ide/gtk/gtk.ijs > >>>> > >>>> main=: 3 : 0 > >>>> main_init'' > >>>> if. r=. conf_init'' do. main_quit r return. end. > >>>> if. r=. conn_init'' do. main_quit r return. end. > >>>> proj_init'' > >>>> menu_init'' > >>>> sview_init'' > >>>> main_open'' > >>>> main_run'' > >>>> if. 3= 4!:0 <'welcome' do. welcome'' end. > >>>> if. 0= 4!:0 <'WELCOME' do. smoutput WELCOME end. > >>>> 0 > >>>> ) > >>>> > >>>> Clearly this fix will only last until the next Pacman download. > >>>> > >>>> Unfortunately startup.ijs can't patch the target verb itself, because > >>>> locale 'jgtkide' isn't yet loaded. The only locales present when > >>>> startup.ijs is entered are: > >>>> base ctag j jcompare jijs jregex jtask z > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:07 AM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>> That's kinda what I guessed. Viz by modifying: main_init_jgtkide_ > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:02 AM, bill lam <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>>> gtkide will run jfe 1 during booting and only after that will > smoutput > >>>>>> redirect to Term. So that you need to put motd after that jfe. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Пнд, 14 Фев 2011, Ian Clark писал(а): > >>>>>>> smoutput in startup.ijs causes a message to appear in jconsole, > >>>>>>> whether running JCON, JHS or JGTK. > >>>>>>> (...which weakly satisfies your original request). > >>>>>>> But I've only verified this for the Mac. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> bin/jgtk.command contains the text: > >>>>>>> #!/bin/sh > >>>>>>> "`dirname "$0"`/jconsole" gtkide > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> so my guess is that by the time gtkide gets run, startup.ijs has > >>>>>>> already been loaded and has had time to perform its definitions and > >>>>>>> overrides. > >>>>>>> So it would be up to the "gtkide" function (main_jgtkide_ ??) to > look > >>>>>>> for a welcome noun or verb. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Ric Sherlock <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>>>>>> > Yes I was thinking along similar lines. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Each of the JFEs could set an appropriate message in Welcome_j_. > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > The Welcome_j_ non could be overwritten by the user's various > >>>>>>> > startup.ijs scripts (unless this gets run before the JFE scripts > - I > >>>>>>> > need to check) > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > Depending on the setting of ShowWelcome in ~config/base.cfg the > >>>>>>> > Welcome_j_ noun gets displayed in the session (jconsole/Term/jijx > >>>>>>> > window). > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Ian Clark < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> >> How about smoutputting the noun WELCOME if it is present, and > not otherwise? > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> Maybe also executing: welcome'' > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> The user could define or override either of these words in > startup.ijs > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:21 AM, Ric Sherlock < > [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>> >>> I think it would be good to have a default "Welcome message" > >>>>>>> >>> (especially for jconsole). > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> >>> It just needs to be something simple to let the user know they > are in > >>>>>>> >>> a Jconsole session and how to exit. IME there is nothing worse > than > >>>>>>> >>> knowing you are in some application, but not knowing what it is > or how > >>>>>>> >>> to get out of it! > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> >>> Obviously the Welcome message would be able to be turned off, > for > >>>>>>> >>> example using an option in ~config/base.cfg ( ShowWelcome=: 0 > ) > >>>>>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> >>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> >> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> > For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> regards, > >>>>>> ==================================================== > >>>>>> GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24 > >>>>>> gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3 > >>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>>>> > >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- Björn Helgason, Verkfræðingur Fornustekkum II 781 Hornafirði, t-póst: [email protected] gsm: +3546985532 sími: +3544781286 http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming Tæknikunnátta höndlar hið flókna, sköpunargáfa er meistari einfaldleikans góður kennari getur stigið á tær án þess að glansinn fari af skónum /|_ .-----------------------------------. ,' .\ / | Með léttri lund verður | ,--' _,' | Dagurinn í dag | / / | Enn betri en gærdagurinn | ( -. | `-----------------------------------' | ) | (\_ _/) (`-. 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