Like all good things, it can be overdone.
2011/2/15 Björn Helgason <[email protected]>: > I think the idea of some info at the start has its merits. > I get this kind of info about some Linux features in some apps. > Tool tips can be interesting even if most of the time they are not. > It is something like in J with demos/labs/helps that you may think you have > seen it all. > Then visiting it you see there are a lot of new stuff there. > Also revisiting a something you tried a long time ago and either > misunderstood or had no need for may be good. > Util that points toward things of interest like tool tips are hard to do > well. > > 2011/2/15 Ian Clark <[email protected]> > >> Thanks, Ric. That's just the explanation I needed. >> >> If I can have a noun (as I do now with j602, called PROMPTS) then I'd >> like to maintain it in startup.ijs rather than base.cfg, because I'm >> always editing startup.ijs (it's the first line in my PROMPTS). But if >> I can have only one out of noun/verb then I'd say verb for its added >> flexibility. >> >> But hey, it's no big deal -- just one more alias on my desktop: "base.cfg". >> >> As for the need for welcome messages, I'd say (from extensive HF >> laboratory investigation of novice behaviour in the 80s -- which may >> no longer pertain for a generation brought up on bad HF design) that >> the requirement is a negative one: not to be faced with a blank screen >> (especially one with the cryptic title "Term") without some context >> being cued. Eg: 'enter something in J:' >> >> Recall that not 1 but 2 windows appear when you click the green J: a >> unix window too (which certainly does furnish context, most >> commendably too). It almost shouts at you: "type here..." >> >> I would also warn against generalising from one's own usage >> preference. We all know features that are so badly designed the first >> thing we do is turn them off. Talking paperclips, anyone? And -- heck >> -- who needs the Accessibility options? <yes yes I'm kidding...> >> >> But even if one's sympathies lie with one's expert audience, there's a >> case for spoonfeeding the novice user. >> >> My own requirement may not be shared by many. I use J for several >> regular routine tasks, and it helps me to have a prompt of the chief >> tasks as re-inputtable lines. A wizzkid would be ashamed to use what >> he'd see as a crutch... but I prefer to think of it as the trim-wheel, >> when you fly a light aircraft. Pilots get no reward for saying "hey -- >> who needs the trim-wheel?" >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Ric Sherlock <[email protected]> wrote: >> > My initial post at the start of this thread was more about how to >> > create a cross-JFE mechanism for displaying a default Welcome message >> > on startup - along with a way to turn it off. If done right it will >> > also allow users/developers to create their own custom startup >> > message. >> > >> > As I see it the ShowWelcome in base.cfg is required so that the users >> > can turn off the default welcome message that each JFE will provide. >> > Setting a Welcome noun to empty in startup.ijs won't help if the JFE >> > (that loads after startup.ijs) then repopulates it. >> > >> > Of course there may be other models that work too, including setting >> > the welcome message or verb in a .cfg file as Chris suggests. >> > >> > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Basically sounds ok. >> >> >> >> I was assuming user would create Welcome in _z_ (or _base_?) not _j_ , >> >> but I don't know if that's better, apart from a gut-feel that system >> >> classes ought to remain untouched. >> >> >> >> Must Welcome be a noun, or can it be a verb instead? Might both be >> >> allowed (whence different names would be needed?) >> >> >> >> Don't fully grasp the need for ShowWelcome in base.cfg. The welcome >> >> msg can be disabled altogether by having startup.ijs set it to empty. >> >> What's gained from having the user set/check a cfg as well as >> >> startup.ijs -- which is effectively a user profile too? Are we >> >> catering here for an administrator who needs the power to deny >> >> facilities to the user? AFAICS the only reason for this facility is >> >> because startup.ijs gets executed "too early" in j701 and the >> >> architecture won't allow it to be executed any later. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Ric Sherlock <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I think startup.ijs could still do the job. How does this sound? >> >>> >> >>> * User creates custom Welcome_j_ in their startup.ijs. >> >>> * JFE creates Welcome_j_ (if it doesn't already exist) with its >> >>> default message) >> >>> * Welcome_j_ is "smoutput"ed to session if ShowWelcome (in base.cfg) >> >>> is set to 1. >> >>> >> >>> To get this to work across JFEs there needs to be some agreement that >> >>> it is desirable (or at least no disagreement that it is undesirable). >> >>> >> >>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>> Got it to work by adding 2 lines to the bottom of verb: main in: >> >>>> ~addons/ide/gtk/gtk.ijs >> >>>> >> >>>> main=: 3 : 0 >> >>>> main_init'' >> >>>> if. r=. conf_init'' do. main_quit r return. end. >> >>>> if. r=. conn_init'' do. main_quit r return. end. >> >>>> proj_init'' >> >>>> menu_init'' >> >>>> sview_init'' >> >>>> main_open'' >> >>>> main_run'' >> >>>> if. 3= 4!:0 <'welcome' do. welcome'' end. >> >>>> if. 0= 4!:0 <'WELCOME' do. smoutput WELCOME end. >> >>>> 0 >> >>>> ) >> >>>> >> >>>> Clearly this fix will only last until the next Pacman download. >> >>>> >> >>>> Unfortunately startup.ijs can't patch the target verb itself, because >> >>>> locale 'jgtkide' isn't yet loaded. The only locales present when >> >>>> startup.ijs is entered are: >> >>>> base ctag j jcompare jijs jregex jtask z >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:07 AM, Ian Clark <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>>> That's kinda what I guessed. Viz by modifying: main_init_jgtkide_ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:02 AM, bill lam <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>>>> gtkide will run jfe 1 during booting and only after that will >> smoutput >> >>>>>> redirect to Term. So that you need to put motd after that jfe. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Пнд, 14 Фев 2011, Ian Clark писал(а): >> >>>>>>> smoutput in startup.ijs causes a message to appear in jconsole, >> >>>>>>> whether running JCON, JHS or JGTK. >> >>>>>>> (...which weakly satisfies your original request). >> >>>>>>> But I've only verified this for the Mac. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> bin/jgtk.command contains the text: >> >>>>>>> #!/bin/sh >> >>>>>>> "`dirname "$0"`/jconsole" gtkide >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> so my guess is that by the time gtkide gets run, startup.ijs has >> >>>>>>> already been loaded and has had time to perform its definitions and >> >>>>>>> overrides. >> >>>>>>> So it would be up to the "gtkide" function (main_jgtkide_ ??) to >> look >> >>>>>>> for a welcome noun or verb. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 3:23 AM, Ric Sherlock <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>>>>> > Yes I was thinking along similar lines. >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > Each of the JFEs could set an appropriate message in Welcome_j_. >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > The Welcome_j_ non could be overwritten by the user's various >> >>>>>>> > startup.ijs scripts (unless this gets run before the JFE scripts >> - I >> >>>>>>> > need to check) >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > Depending on the setting of ShowWelcome in ~config/base.cfg the >> >>>>>>> > Welcome_j_ noun gets displayed in the session (jconsole/Term/jijx >> >>>>>>> > window). >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Ian Clark < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> How about smoutputting the noun WELCOME if it is present, and >> not otherwise? >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> Maybe also executing: welcome'' >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> The user could define or override either of these words in >> startup.ijs >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:21 AM, Ric Sherlock < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >>> I think it would be good to have a default "Welcome message" >> >>>>>>> >>> (especially for jconsole). >> >>>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>>> >>> It just needs to be something simple to let the user know they >> are in >> >>>>>>> >>> a Jconsole session and how to exit. IME there is nothing worse >> than >> >>>>>>> >>> knowing you are in some application, but not knowing what it is >> or how >> >>>>>>> >>> to get out of it! >> >>>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>>> >>> Obviously the Welcome message would be able to be turned off, >> for >> >>>>>>> >>> example using an option in ~config/base.cfg ( ShowWelcome=: 0 >> ) >> >>>>>>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>> >>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>> >> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>> > For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> regards, >> >>>>>> ==================================================== >> >>>>>> GPG key 1024D/4434BAB3 2008-08-24 >> >>>>>> gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv-keys 4434BAB3 >> >>>>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>>>> >> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > > > -- > Björn Helgason, Verkfræðingur > Fornustekkum II > 781 Hornafirði, > t-póst: [email protected] > gsm: +3546985532 > sími: +3544781286 > http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming > > > Tæknikunnátta höndlar hið flókna, sköpunargáfa er meistari einfaldleikans > > góður kennari getur stigið á tær án þess að glansinn fari af skónum > /|_ .-----------------------------------. > ,' .\ / | Með léttri lund verður | > ,--' _,' | Dagurinn í dag | > / / | Enn betri en gærdagurinn | > ( -. | `-----------------------------------' > | ) | (\_ _/) > (`-. '--.) (='.'=) ♖♘♗♕♔♙ > `. )----' (")_(") ☃☠ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
