List cc Oliver
1. There was a message from David Hawkins after this one from Oliver - that
seem to indicate David is better understanding Oliver’s position on CDR. Good.
But I am not following that theme in this message.
2. This message is picking up on Oliver’s final paragraph below - returning
to the thread title topic(couplng Dr. Shiva and “Geo”). At the “carboncounter"
site below, there is a 50 minute video of Mark Lynas talking mostly about GMO’s
(which I think has nothing to do with CDR and especially biochar - so hope we
don’t go down that road). There is also a video of Dr. Shiva - but only on
GMO.
At the 27:53 point, we find 10 seconds for one sentence re Dr. Shiva
(emphasis added):
“The government in India is increasingly enthralled to backward looking
ideologues like that of Vandana Shiva who idealized preindustrial village
agriculture despite the fact it was an age of repeated famine and structural
insecurity for everyone."
3. This sentence apparently caused Dr. Shiva to respond on 3 January:
#MarkLynas saying farmers shd be free to grow #GMOs which can contaminate
#organic farms is like saying #rapists shd have freedom to rape”.
I hesitated to include this, but think she would say the same with
“Geo”replacing “GMO”. The reference to rape didn’t go over well at this site.
4. A little later, Robert Wilson, owner of the site (which heading ends
“fanatic or fantasist” that Oliver has sent us to) said: "The real issue
however is whether Vandava Shiva is simply deluded, or actively malicious. In
either case it is high time the environmental movement recognised that she is a
deeply dangerous figure.”
5. I prefer to think that Dr. Shiva, like the anti-biochar folks at BFW
and ETC have simply forgotten how important it is to use the scientific method.
This (anti-science [not just a different science] - as similarly employed by
climate deniers) is the message I got today after reading Mark Lynas.
6. Apologies for returning to the main point of this thread started a few
days ago by Andrew - which I believe was that geoengineering (both CDR and SRM)
is going to be much hampered by a very small group. I agree with the several
writers listed above that Dr. Shiva and supporters are dangerous, not because
they have and anti-geo message, but because they are carrying an anti-science
message. I do not think they are either deluded or malicious - they only come
from a misguided “moral?” position not supported by science. She and her
supporters are dangerous because they have a sizable and vocal following. I
hope someone/anyone can offer a best way to engage in dialog with Dr. Shiva -
especially on whether she can support any means of CDR - and the ethics behind
doing or not doing some form of CDR and/or SRM.
Thanks to Oliver (who probably has a totally different take on this) for his
additional alert (below, emphasis added) on Dr. Shiva.
Ron
On Oct 28, 2013, at 10:17 AM, O Morton <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear David
>
> Though obviously you couldn't know this, in the context of the preceding
> paras, it should be fairly clear that the flight deck metaphor applies to a
> range of choices of which climate geoengineering options are only a subset
> (new energy sources, new farming practices etc) The subsequent paras make the
> case that considering things "carefully and thoughtfully" will lead people
> not to wish to press the button marked OIF. So I still don't see how your
> response differs from what I said.
>
> The nature discussion is probably a long one for another place; my basic
> point is that there is nothing more socially constructed than what gets
> counted as natural.
>
> On another topic, I can't speak to Vandana Shiva's publication record, but
> those wanting to know more about her thought and rhetoric may find this
> interesting:
> http://carboncounter.wordpress.com/2013/01/05/vandana-shiva-fanatic-or-fantasist/
>
>
> Best
>
> Oliver
<snip a following message from David - as not relating sat all to the
topic of Dr. Shiva and geoengineering as introduced by Andrew..>
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