" Notably I don't think moral hazards were an issue with any of these other attempts to reduce or prevent anthropogenic damages and harms."
The large red hazard warnings on new, ozone-friendly air conditioners relate to flammability and explosion not morality. On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 10:23:01 PM UTC-5 jessica....@stonybrook.edu wrote: > I see two things to keep in mind here: first, climate intervention is a > deliberate attempt to improve things that have been made worse by human > actions, so, it is not comparable in that regard to anthropogenic climate > change or to pollution more generally, which are not deliberate attempts to > achieve various objectives, but are rather side effects of other > activities. Second, there are many attempts to improve environmental > things, but most of them are done at regional, not global levels. The work > to reduce the ozone hole, the Antarctic treaty and governance of Antarctic > activities, and (insufficient) reductions of killing large ocean mammals > are some that are deliberate attempts to improve environmental things at > very large to global scales, thus, are somewhat comparable to climate > intervention. Maybe regulation of nuclear weapons might count, but it's a > pretty distinctive issue, more concerned with reduction of risk than > reduction of existing damage. I don't think any of these examples involved > the Global South, or issues like equity and inclusivity at all, but no > doubt others know much more about them than I do and can comment on that. > While there are were were some concerns about negative impacts of these > activities, these concerns have mostly been about perceptions of economic > disadvantages, I think, while opposition to and alarm about climate > intervention is largely about perceived (mostly unknown) threats and risks > to health, well being, the environment, nature, etc. in addition to the > (getting tiresome) arguments about moral hazards. Notably I don't think > moral hazards were an issue with any of these other attempts to reduce or > prevent anthropogenic damages and harms. > > > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:49 PM Gernot Wagner <ger...@gwagner.com> wrote: > >> To be clear, this effort goes quite a bit further. From the "extended >> argument": "[…] it is *effective *and *enforceable *political control by >> the Global South that would be required." >> >> That, of course, renders basically any global (climate) governance effort >> anywhere illegitimate. >> >> *Gernot Wagner, **New York University (on leave at Columbia Business >> School, spring 2022)* >> gwagner.com >> *Keep in touch: *gwagner.com/#newsletter >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 8:40 PM Andrew Revkin <rev...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Yes, that's a solid point. How many sustainability challenges (other >>> than CFC's) have been, or can be, "governed a fair, inclusive, and >>> effective manner"? >>> >>> On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 11:46 PM Greg Rau <gh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >>> >>>> “In short, solar geoengineering deployment cannot be governed globally >>>> in a fair, inclusive, and effective manner.” >>>> Apparently, neither can adequate emissions reduction. Considering >>>> what’s at stake, how about trying harder on both fronts? Or would that be >>>> asking too much of governance “experts”? Guess our only hope is CDR, or is >>>> that also beyond human control? >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 7:07 PM, 'Robert Tulip' via geoengineering < >>>> geoengi...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From the content of the letter, it is obvious the authors are not >>>> geoengineering experts. The signatories of the open letter >>>> <https://www.solargeoeng.org/non-use-agreement/open-letter/> are >>>> listed at https://www.solargeoeng.org/non-use-agreement/signatories/. >>>> They are mainly governance scholars, as noted in the article >>>> <https://wires.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wcc.754>, which >>>> means their fields are more in social science than physical science. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I doubt that people with scientific expertise in geoengineering would >>>> support such an ignorant and harmful polemic. It is distressing that the >>>> evidence-free attitudes in this letter have such widespread senior >>>> academic >>>> support. If this viewpoint remains influential, our planetary goose is >>>> cooked. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Robert Tulip >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* geoengi...@googlegroups.com <geoengi...@googlegroups.com> *On >>>> Behalf Of *Andrew Lockley >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, 22 January 2022 3:47 AM >>>> *To:* geoengineering <geoengi...@googlegroups.com> >>>> *Subject:* [geo] Senior scholars? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> About that recent letter on "International Non-Use Agreement on Solar >>>> Geoengineering"... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.solargeoeng.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It has been signed by "senior scholars", we're told: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "...over 45 senior scholars from around the world who are the First >>>> Signatories of our Open Letter..." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But is this description correct, insofar as the signatories' >>>> publication record on this specific subject? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've been asked to share the attached data, by an anon source. It's >>>> based on WOS searches, (with a couple of manual amendments for missing >>>> pubs). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 'Web of science search, topic: "solar geoengineering" OR "solar >>>> radiation management" OR "climate engineering" OR "geoengineering" OR >>>> "stratospheric aerosol geoengineering" OR "marine cloud brightening" OR >>>> "cirrus cloud thinning"' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While this search is doubtless neither perfect nor exhaustive, it does >>>> not appear obviously biased to me. (I had no role in its generation.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've added only mean/max/mode info - pasting data to a new file to >>>> protect my source. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You will note the following key points of information >>>> >>>> 1) Mode number of topic papers detected among sigs is zero - Only ~1/3 >>>> have ever published on the topic. Any "senior" status has therefore >>>> generally been acquired in other fields, or not at all. >>>> >>>> 2) Max pubs is 8 among signatories (FYI same as me - and am an unwaged >>>> RA with no PhD, and not by any sensible objective definition a "senior >>>> scholar"). >>>> >>>> 3) Of the top ~400 authors on solar geo, only 7 have signed their >>>> letter. (<2%) >>>> >>>> 4) Mean publications of signatories <1 >>>> >>>> 5) Max pubs of non-signatories is over 10x that of signatories >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As always, I express no opinion. You can form your own view, based on >>>> the facts, as to whether these signatories are accurately described as >>>> "senior scholars", wrt to this specific letter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "geoengineering" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CAJ3C-04ZMTp75MmSfji6PajrK_ujRe208kqxk_sx1MZ9AL8AuQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CAJ3C-04ZMTp75MmSfji6PajrK_ujRe208kqxk_sx1MZ9AL8AuQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "geoengineering" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/033601d80f3d%241ef64f70%245ce2ee50%24%40yahoo.com.au >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/033601d80f3d%241ef64f70%245ce2ee50%24%40yahoo.com.au?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "geoengineering" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/6E6F2258-A936-41AD-841E-CFAE3A03C2D7%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/6E6F2258-A936-41AD-841E-CFAE3A03C2D7%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *ANDREW REVKIN* >>> *Founding Director, Initiative on Communication & Sustainability* >>> *Columbia University Climate School* >>> *Sustain What newsletter <http://revkin.bulletin.com>* >>> *Sustain What webcast* <http://j.mp/sustainwhatlive> >>> *+1 914.441.5556 <(914)%20441-5556> phone, @revkin Twitter* >>> *@revkin <http://twitter.com/revkin>, Facebook >>> <https://www.facebook.com/andrew.revkin.5>, Music >>> <http://j.mp/revkinmusic>, Books >>> <https://www.amazon.com/Andrew-Revkin/e/B001IXNSRK/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1390325965&sr=1-2-ent>* >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "geoengineering" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CA%2Bakwtb8K9G1OfyVMvABhDqMxQWC31kcqd0iKaidpxF84Gm4Yg%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CA%2Bakwtb8K9G1OfyVMvABhDqMxQWC31kcqd0iKaidpxF84Gm4Yg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "geoengineering" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to geoengineerin...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CAJK3vz3KNkb3e0a1ZCy7jjX0R2dmMrsJxPjCvS%2BGJUA43UdrNg%40mail.gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/geoengineering/CAJK3vz3KNkb3e0a1ZCy7jjX0R2dmMrsJxPjCvS%2BGJUA43UdrNg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "geoengineering" group. 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