On Sun, 3 Aug 2003, Phil Harper wrote:

> >On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Phil Harper wrote:
> >
> > > >Alan Horkan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


> >Not officially.  In fact there seem to be people actively resisting it who
> >insist on being differnt just for the sake of being differnt.
> >
> >Clone first and innovate later.
> >
> >Follow standards, even defacto standards unless there is a damned good
> >reason to do otherwise.
>
> make every window manager and desktop just like windows, and every graphics
> app just like photoshop, every vector app just like illustrator...

You are missing the point.
Dont do things differently just because you can, do them differently
because they are better.

In most cases better needs to be substantially better to get over the
problem of getting users to change, and I well understand that it applies
not just to copying features but to changing the existing features of
GIMP.

> i personally see more importance in following a defacto standard in an app
> like Gnumeric or Abiword than in something like GIMP, but that's probably
> just me.

While I dont think Adobe Photoshope is a shining example of user friendly
design it is likely to inform the expectations of most users.  By
following photoshop (unless there are really good reasons to do otherwise)
we make it easier for people to learn to use the GIMP.

Just think how many people already know how to use Photoshop and how many
books and tutorials there are for Photoshop.  Just as it makes sense to
try to support Photoshop file formats it similarly makes sense to try and
support other features of Photoshop such as its user inteface.

The GIMP is so big and so old that it will continue to be quite different
from Photoshop and I readily accept that but I dont accept doing things
differently just for the sake of doing things differently.

Try reading magazines about Computer Graphics and notice how often
similarity to Photoshop gets mentioned and how highly valued a feature it
is.  Corel Painter 8 was praised in a recent review I read because it was
so much easier for Photoshop users to learn than previous versions.

> >The GIMP itself is a defacto standard, ask the average Linux/BSD user
> >about image editing and they will recommend the GIMP for just about
> >everything, not many know well enough to recommend Image Magic for batch
> >proccessing.  I know there are a few simpler image editing programs but
> >users end up getting thrown in at the deep end and told to just learn to
> >use the GIMP.
>
> or sometimes people offer to help them in their learning and suggest that
> they might want to read a book to help, i supose this is a good chance for
> the second edition of Grokking the GIMP though(any plans anyone know?) :)

It is far easier to change the GIMP once than to try and change thousands
of users.  I am not advocating blindly changing things but I need people
to be able to justify why things are the way they are and to always keep
asking can we do better?
Software is a tool and is supposed to serve the users.

It is completely the wrong attitude to try and force users to change to
meet the program when the program is able to change to meet their needs.
(But again I dont deny that inherent complexity of a program as poweful as
the GIMP and users invariably will need to do some learning and getting
some training is always advisable).

In the words of the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons:
"Dont try to change me baby"

> >I am increasingly noticing that quite a few applictions copy the GIMP and
> >if I ever want to get them to change I am unfortunately going to have try
> >and change the GIMP first or at the very least get people to admit that
> >they have absolutely know idea why things are done a certain way except
> >that the are already that way.
> >
> >The "old ways" aaah, you may notice the GIMP has changed quite a bit since
> >1.2 and needs to keep on changing.  The old keybindings could and should
> >be put in a "old ways"  menurc so that we can get on with making a
> >powerful image editor that caters to a wide audience with user friendly
> >defaults (see Ctrl+Shift+Z for details).  The older users are also the
> >people most easily able to change and adapt to new but reasonable
> >defaults.
> >
> >This may seem like a bit of a rant but really ... I dont even know myself
> >anymore but it is things like this that annoy me so much that I had no
> >choice but to stick my nose in and keep making my opinions known.
>
> i still don't understand why the keybindings would need to fall inline with
> P$  simply to make the sofware apeal to a wider audience, there are lots of

"to make the software appeal to a wider audience"

If you are not gaining users you are losing them.  The health and future
of a project depends on bringing more people in otherwise people like Sven
get stuck doing most of the work.

The most important difference between Linux and BSD is popularity,
technical merit alone is not enough (thanks to John 'maddog' Hall for that
one).

I shouldn't have to justify why I want to make the GIMP more popular, you
should have to justify why you dont want the GIMP to be more popular!?

If the GIMP can be made to appeal to a wider audience without alienating
existing users then of course we should make it appeal to the widest
possible audience.

> die hard adobe users who will never even try GIMP, and then there are the

never say never, we should at least be able to get them to try it and tell
use what they feel is missing.
Die hard GIMP users need to use other software and learn what improvements
GIMP would benifit from.


> and if other software copies the GIMP's way of doing things then surely it
> can't be that bad a way, changing GIMP 2.0 won't neceseraly make all those

Lemming follow other lemmings over cliffs.
Eat shit and die, billions of flies cant be wrong.

> apps which do so fall inline with the new stup, in fact it may introduce yet

These programs are assuming that the GIMP has good reasons for doing
things the way it does, but in many cases it clearly doesn't have good
solid reasons for doing things the way it does except that the developers
decided to try something different.

Don't doubt for a second that I will be challenging various things but I
want to wait for GIMP 2.0 after which the developers will hopefully be
more receptive to changes.

> another set of keybindings for those poor linux users to contend with.

Changing the GIMP to match the Gnome/KDE user inteface guidelines will
make things more consistant and easier to learn, not less.

> important one, they've changed, we must just accept that i guess.

I dont want to change things just for the sake of chaning them but I want
to be able to give the best possible solution for the most people
possible.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan
http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

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