<[EMAIL PROTECTED] ( Marc) (A.) (Lehmann )> writes:

> As I told you before: for using the dialogs, it doesn't matter
> wether the design is a beauty in itself or wether it is spaghetti
> code. What counts is how it works for the user. And the new dialog
> is still not up to the level of usefulness as the gtk+-1.0 one,
> despite your continual claims to the contrary.

I believe that we got more complaints about the old dialog than we got
about the new one. At least not since the worst problems of the new
dialog have been fixed. That makes me think that the new dialog isn't
all that bad compared to the former. Most of the complaints seem to
come from people who got accustomed to the old dialog and haven't
really tried to approach the new one yet w/o leaving the old habits
behind. Of course that's an assumption but the discussions that
evolved around these complaints seem to show that.

> Yes, this is subjective, but you need to accept that some people
> have different workflows and different styles of user interaction,
> and for some people, the above statement is true.

Of course. That has never been questioned. But I am not concerned with
that, at least not as much as with the usability of GIMP for new and
infrequent users.

>> (3) Don't try to advertise the old GtkFileSelection dialog as being
>>     the solution that we should revert too.
> I didn't. I did advertise the way the old file selection dialog used
> it's text entry as the solution for me (and others with similar
> complaints).

So far noone has made a proposal on how such an entry should be
integrated with the current dialog. So I don't have much chance but to
assume that what you have in mind is basically the behaviour of the
old dialog. Perhaps you aren't suggesting to revert to it code-wise,
but I haven't yet seen a detailed proposal on how an entry with Tab
completion is supposed to work without bringing back the problems we
had with the old dialog. I certainly wouldn't want to miss the current
key-navigation behaviour. But perhaps you can offer a viable
alternative? Such an alternative would have to be a concept for the
whole dialog. Just adding an entry with Tab completion is going to
ruin the whole thing.

>>     It's main problem was that it was completely unusable for
>>     newcomers.
> Probably. I admit am not concerned with that.

See. That is the main problem with your approach. You are only
concerned with your needs. That is all valid but you should at least
try to look at the bigger picture or else I don't see how we can get
anywhere if we are discussing user interfaces.

> Well, well... but the gtk+ people who designed the current dialog
> vividly disagree with you on that. After all, the current dialog is
> full of features that are not discoverable.

The question here is if the dialog works w/o discovering these
features or if it leaves the average user frustrated. IMO the new
dialog does a better job because it works somewhat better even before
you discover that it can be used without the mouse.

> You should explain why you outright refuse to consider tab
> completion (I interpret "not taken seriously" as an refusal to
> seriously consider something), even though it's part of the current
> design and despite the fact that people actualyl complain about
> discoverability issues with the *new* file dialogs.

Your interpretation is nuts then. I have never said anything against
Tab completion. Actually I very much welcome the changes to the
completion behaviour in the Save dialog that came with GTK+ 2.6.8. If
you tried, you might have noticed that you can finally use the Tab key
to expand to the common prefix of existing files. That was one of the
concerns that were taken from GIMP users to the people actually
working on the file-chooser. It took a while but I think that it now
works quite well.

> If discoverability of features is the goal of the new dialogs, they
> clearly failed.

I agree that there are too many undiscoverable features, like Ctrl-L
(which is probably just there to kill the trolls) and the more useful
keybindings which are carefully hidden away.

>>     If you insist on being taken seriously with this approach,
>>     please show me evidence to back up your claims.
> I, and others, did so.

Marc, I am sorry, but your own personal user experience is not
evidence. Nor is mine or anyone else's. I admit that it isn't fair to
ask for evidence here because you and me both don't have the resources
to deliver facts about the usability of these dialogs. It would
certainly be interesting, and probably helpful, to actually collect
such data and compare different file dialogs in carefully designed
tests with a variety of users.

If you or someone else can come up with a detailed mockup of an
alternative dialog and if we could write a prototype that actually
works, I am quite confident that we could persuade someone to do a
usability test on it.

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