Benjamin Scott wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tony Lambiris wrote:
> > It's very straight-forward, and as long as you know a little about your
> > system (at least the module you use for your ethernet device), Debian will
> > install no problem.
>
> Hmmm. What about the 99.9% of the population who does not know what module
> you use for your ethernet device? :-)
granted, ethernet should be one of the things probed, all the modules you can load
comes with a brief description of what types of cards and chipsets use the module,
and Debian also lets you know if installation of the module failed or suceeded, so
its really not a big deal. if you have a 3com, and you know its model is 3c509, i
would hope you had enough common sense to load 3c509.o.
> > What do you mean they have to play catch up? Their installer works, so
> > what do they need to catch up?
>
> To pick a random example ;-), Red Hat's installer:
>
> - Supports GUI installs. This can be a big deal. There is a large segment of
> the user population who has never used a character-cell-based UI.
I agree this would be a 'nice thing to have', but Im sure its not high on the list
of things to do within the Debian community. I would rather have text based
install and have my system work, than a GUI installer and have my system crash
after 3 weeks of uptime, and have to worry about my ftp and lpd ports being open
to the world so anyone with an internet connection can crack me, or even something
as simple as not shipping a bunk version of gcc.... ahem :)
> - Offers some predefined "Installation Types" which will basically create a
> turn-key system with the press of a button. (Okay, I'm embellishing things a
> little, but not that much...)
If you mean Installation types as in a predefined list of sets (eg Webserver,
Development Server, etc.) then Debian has exactly this. They had around 20
predefined lists or so, so if you have a good idea of what you need, select one of
those predefined lists, and most likely you wont have to do anything after the box
is running.
> - Offers three levels of package selection granularity (installation types,
> package groups, and individual packages).
See above.
> - Offers a friendly UI for partitioning.
Again, another "nice thing to have", but not crucial. I cant remember if Debian
has a 'suggestive' partition layout if you dont know how to use fdisk or anything,
because ive always created and formatted my own partitions.
> - Auto-detects *a lot* of hardware, so you have to do *nothing*. It just
> works. Automatically. This is a Big Win in my book.
Storm Linux's installation detected _alot_ of stuff (last I can remember) during
installation. Hopefully debian will integrate parts of that code into their
installer. I guess only time will tell, and I can only see it as getting better.
Remember, Red Hat never used to automagically detect things, or had a
GUI installer.
> - Supports automation via Kickstart scripts.
I must admit this was a nice feature when I was working at DCG computers and
building clusters (where every node was pretty much the exact same). Im sure more
distributions will adopt this method. Another thing you have to remember, is that
Red Hat can hire a bunch of people if they need a feature kicked out in a week or
two..... Debian is done on completely volunteer work.
> I think Derek called this one. I can do all this stuff myself, but given
> the choice between easy and hard, I'll pick easy any day.
As well as I, but it would be better for EVERYONE if people took a few minutes
each day and learned something new about the system. I learned so much about
computers in general (hardware, software, etc) when I was learning Slackware.
[snip]
> > Well dpkg basically has these states....
>
> I understand the gist of it. I just don't like it. :-) Like Jeff Smith
> keeps saying, a lot of this is just personal choice.
Absolutely. I wouldnt give up apt-get if you paid me (well, it depends on how
much, heh).
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tony Lambiris wrote:
> > Granted thats not Red Hats fault at all, but it just makes more sense that
> > if you start off using a system like Slackware, you HAVE to learn
> > everything about the system and Linux, because theres nothing to hold your
> > hand.
>
> This sounds like a variation on the old joke, "If it was hard to write, it
> should be hard to understand".
>
> Some people in the Debian community (I don't necessarily mean anyone here)
> seem to identify with that joke a bit more than is healthy. There was an
> infamous posting to one of the Debian mailing lists some time ago that said
> Debian *should* be hard to use, because it forces people to be smarter, or
> some such thing.
That was a bullheaded approach I guess. In any instance there comes a certain
amount of pride when you get something working by yourself, and sometimes people
are very militant when it comes to that. I admit, sometimes I get a little ancy
when one of my friends asks me how to make their sound work in Linux. I guess its
just who you are, but be assured that not everyone who runs Debian thinks that
way. :)
> Making the learning curve steep in an attempt to increase user understanding
> is a Very Bad Thing. It pisses people off and creates an artificial barrier to
> entry -- which induces a negative feedback loop that will kill you eventually.
See above.
> More importantly, *not everyone wants to know*. The vast majority of people
I know, that is why I am making over 35k a year at 19 years old. :)
I took the time to learn my stuff, and now I am reaping what I sewed (sp?)
> see computers as tools, a means to an end. They don't want to know how it
> works. They're not hackers. This is the way it should be. Do you know every
> detail about every piece of equipment (e.g., car, refrigerator, etc.) you use?
Absolutely not, which is why Im sure everytime my car goes in for a repair, if
I did it myself Im sure I could save a lot of money. Like I said one paragraph up,
thats why they have jobs, because not everyone cares about their cars, as long as
it runs, and thats why I have a job doing what I do.
> Even if everyone did want to know, *not everyone can learn that way*.
> Different people have different learning styles. Declaring by fiat that we
> should throw everyone in and hope they float is not a good policy.
See above.
> End of rant. (Again, I'm not targeting this at anyone here; I'm commenting
> on a phenomenon I've observed elsewhere.)
Ditto ;)
> > Jeez, how are you people installing your Debian system?? Remember...
> > install ONLY the base system, then apt-get ONLY what you need ...
>
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Disk space is cheaper than time.
Which is why Debian has predefined installation sets.
> :-) In other words, it is often easier to install everything all at once, so
> it will be available, than install things one at a time as people discover
> they need them.
Well that is just personal preference. I prefer to install ONLY the stuff I need
to get the system up and running, then install what I need after. Some people want
to install every toy possible, and thats fine. Personal preference.
> > (and be sure to run dselect to resolve some depends every so often).
>
> What happened to APT handling all that for you? ;-)
Every system has bugs, yes... even Red Hat!!! (I know its hard to believe..... ;)
)
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