Benjamin Scott said:
<snip lots of comments about debian install,. Alas, I can't terribly argue,
since I agree that the installer is the worst part of debian>
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tony Lambiris wrote:
> > Granted thats not Red Hats fault at all, but it just makes more sense that
> > if you start off using a system like Slackware, you HAVE to learn
> > everything about the system and Linux, because theres nothing to hold your
> > hand.
>
> This sounds like a variation on the old joke, "If it was hard to write, it
> should be hard to understand".
How else do "experts" stay in business? ;-)
>
> Some people in the Debian community (I don't necessarily mean anyone here)
> seem to identify with that joke a bit more than is healthy. There was an
> infamous posting to one of the Debian mailing lists some time ago that said
> Debian *should* be hard to use, because it forces people to be smarter, or
> some such thing.
>
> Making the learning curve steep in an attempt to increase user understanding
> is a Very Bad Thing. It pisses people off and creates an artificial barrier to
> entry -- which induces a negative feedback loop that will kill you eventually.
There's easy to learn and easy to use. Unfortunately, easy to learn is
required to get easy to use usable (is that a sentence?)
On the other hand, no matter how easy it is to learn, some things are just
complex. Attempting to dumb down complex things normally results in MS
software. I've told a lot of folks that most of system admin / network admin
is true no matter what OS you use. Network security, routing concepts,
privileged access for dangerous commands, etc. The other small bit is the OS
specific pieces.
On the gripping hand, you don't want to make it any harder than you need to,
and, as you said, if you make it too hard, they will go for the easy, but not
as useful (or even brain-damaged).
>
> More importantly, *not everyone wants to know*. The vast majority of people
> see computers as tools, a means to an end. They don't want to know how it
> works. They're not hackers. This is the way it should be. Do you know every
> detail about every piece of equipment (e.g., car, refrigerator, etc.) you use?
The hard part now about this is figuring out where that dividing line is.
Also, it varies, depending on what you're doing. A refrigerator can be
simple, because the worst that happens is it breaks. A networked system
connected to the internet could put your personal info at risk. A hospital
system connected to the network could put lots of people's extremely personal
info at risk.
>
> Even if everyone did want to know, *not everyone can learn that way*.
> Different people have different learning styles. Declaring by fiat that we
> should throw everyone in and hope they float is not a good policy.
And what's wrong with Fiat's? Some people like driving them!
On a serious side, this is why I like choice. Everyone is different, and
learns and does things in different ways. Trying to do "one-size-fits-all"
results in MS software.
>
> End of rant. (Again, I'm not targeting this at anyone here; I'm commenting
> on a phenomenon I've observed elsewhere.)
>
> > Jeez, how are you people installing your Debian system?? Remember...
> > install ONLY the base system, then apt-get ONLY what you need ...
>
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Disk space is cheaper than time.
> :-) In other words, it is often easier to install everything all at once, so
> it will be available, than install things one at a time as people discover
> they need them.
Speaking of different ways of doing things! If I'm not using it, it doesn't
belong on the disk! The safest code is the code that's not there!
>
> > (and be sure to run dselect to resolve some depends every so often).
>
> What happened to APT handling all that for you? ;-)
>
My question too. Guess Tony's one of those who does things different than me.
Oh well.
jeff
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