From: "John Nazareth" <[email protected]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’
I would like to provide a statistician’s view on this topic.
When we talk about the elite Goan families taking pleasure in being the progeny of the Portuguese presence in Goa, I presume we are talking about the cultural progeny, not physical progeny. True mixed race marriages were predominantly Portuguese men marrying Goan women. They would live in the City of Goa (“Old Goa”) which was quite cosmopolitan. (Extremely few Portuguese women came to Goa.) They would have had difficulty living in the Goan villages because of the highly structured society of the gaunkari.
That is why in the villages (where most of the Goans lived once the great City of Goa got depopulated) there is very little evidence of admixture of Goans and Portuguese. My own DNA analysis with “23andme” found that I have only 0.2% Portuguese blood. My family spans Moira (Bardez), Malar (Divar – Tiswadi)), and Benaulim (Salcette).
And in time I would surmise that most of the mixed-race Portuguese-Goans went to Portugal. I’d wager that there is more Goan blood in Portugal than Portuguese blood in Goa.
John H Nazareth
John,
0.2% Portuguese blood? I believe we all have about 2% Neanderthal genes, could you have only 10% of that as Portuguese blood?... [Just kidding!...]
Nuno
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John de Figueiredo
Sent: October 4, 2024 9:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’
Not every Portuguese who came to Goa, settled in Goa, and married Goans or within their own group was “uneducated, from the countryside, rough, brute, and with hardly any etiquette.” This is a stereotype unsupported by the data. Many came from Portuguese aristocratic families, refined, and educated, and they contributed immensely to the culture of Goa. In fact, the Island of Chorão, where many of them lived, was known as “Ilha dos Fidalgos” (Island of Nobility). Here is an excellent reference on this subject published by Fundação Oriente:
Jorge Forjaz and José Francisco de Noronha
Os Luso-Descendentes da Índia Portuguesa.
Fundação Oriente, Lisboa 2003 ISBN: 972-785-044-8.
This book describes the biographies of more than 300 Portuguese families established in Goa, Daman, Diu, Bassein, and Mumbai.
John M. de Figueiredo
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 4, 2024, at 8:17 PM, Roland Francis <[email protected]> wrote:
So much for the ‘elite’ Goan families who take endless pleasure in claiming to be progeny of the Portuguese presence in Goa - the administrators and the police and army.
Roland Francis
416-453-3371
On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 4:52 AM Joao Paulo Cota <[email protected]> wrote:
Quite a few historical books mention about the nature of Portuguese who went to places like Goa. They were often uneducated, from the country side, rough, brutes and with hardly any etiquete.
Hence, their needs were obviously more of a very basic nature...
Possibly why race was never an issue to them to have personal relationships with the native population, as long as their personal needs were met.
Also, on other reference material, educated Portuguese often made highly derogatory remarks on the native population, calling them 'barbarians' and 'savages'. Of course, the average natives of the land would not have any universities and libraries to get themselves any refined education. Making such lame comparisons, only showed their lack of intellect and reasoning, despite having attended schools and colleges.
There is hardly any evidence that these higher class colonisers have mingled as much with the local 'barbarian' populace, as much as the uneducated, coloniser 'brutes' did.
Hence there was an unspoken, racial issue based on social class.
Vasco da Gama never discovered India, the arabs did in the 8th century. He would ha been nowhere if not for the help of the Omani navigator Ibn Majid who had been requested to guide VDG to the Malabar coast in india in 1498.
Else he would had met the same fate as Colombo the drunkard, who got lost in the Carribean and assuming he reached India, called the place the West Indies.
History needs a bit of an update.
From: 'Nuno Cardoso da Silva' via Goa-Research-Net <[email protected]>
Sent: 03 October 2024 11:23
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’
Alberto,
The Portuguese stole as much as any other nation. The Portuguese difference was the willingness of mixing with other ethnic groups, from the casual sexual intercourse to marriage and to the ability to "go native". We might on occasion consider the "natives" primitive, but that never stopped us from having normal intercourse with them. Considerations of racial purity never came to our minds. We might not have been very tolerant in respect of religion, but race differences never bothered us...
Nuno Cardoso da Silva
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2024 at 11:40 AM
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’
John. Vasco (Vasco foi Gamar, as some Portuguese say) attacked ships in the Indian Ocean, killed their crew and looted everything. Do you think the Portuguese were different? What do you think of the black slaves from Africa taken to the American continent? The Inquisition in Goa? You cannot whitewash the history recorded and archived in France, Venice and Florence (Italy), the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, India, etc. (The verb Gamar in Portuguese means to steal).
Alberto, professor aposentado de Historia.
----- Mensagem de John de Figueiredo <[email protected]> ---------
Data: Wed, 2 Oct 2024 13:07:12 -0400
De: John de Figueiredo <[email protected]>
Assunto: Re: [GRN] Re: Dutch map ‘stolen from the Portuguese’
Para: [email protected]
SOME Europeans “did everything they could to get their hands on the wealth of the Asians”. But there were other Europeans (Portuguese) who did not do that and some who called to task those who stole (like Vasco da Gama when he was Viceroy of Portuguese India).
John M. de Figueiredo
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 2, 2024, at 11:15 AM, [email protected] wrote:
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