I received a message off list responding to my comments. Rather than duplicating a message intended off-list (ironically referencing the need to avoid private discussions :D), I will summarize the points and address them.
1. irc logging is not collecting the data of users 2. the goal is to archive public discussions that take place between paid and non-paid contributors (like mailing lists) WRT to 1) - I basically flat out reject this argument. If you are logging usernames and attributing them to messages, you are explicitly collecting data about users. In addition, some users will reveal information about themselves on IRC that may constitute PII and would not want that going into a public archive. We are not talking about collecting data of users here we are talking about having a way to archive publicly discussions that take place in our project between paid and non-paid contributors. Much like we make public and archive our discussions on mailing lists. Importantly, many people on irc use the same handle on irc that they use on other social media networks, and their irc or other social media interactions could be used to unmask them. Just because someone *can* aggregate and publish data about users doesn't mean that we *should* do it. WRT to 2) Yes, it could be advantageous to capture some of these discussions. I have, on more than one occasion, copied and pasted an irc chat into a text file when it contains a relevant topic I aim to learn about later. But on the whole, I think it is important to balance things; some discussions and decisions are made on IRC, but more frequently they happen on mailing lists or in meetings. Knowledge transfer happens via IRC, but would an irc chat with someone about wrappers <http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/search?query=wrappers> really bring more value than a link to this blog post <http://blog.mozilla.org/gabor/2012/12/13/security-wrappers-and-add-on-development/> or this MDN article <https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Tech/XPCOM/Language_bindings/XPConnect/XPConnect_wrappers> ? We need to be open, and transparent, but not at the expense of the freedom to participate in "water cooler" chat on IRC that would be inhibited by the knowledge that everything not marked as private or secret is published. This feels like a cheap way to create the appearance of transparency and accountability without actually improving things. On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Yvan Boily <[email protected]> wrote: > Not to beat a dead horse here, but again, there is a difference between > "This is a public service, that might be logged" and "This is a public > service that is logged and published." > > One is a notice that people might be logging, the other is the explicit, > long term collection of data about users, which is something that Mozilla > has, in general, been opposed to. > > While I agree that there might be value, I don't think that value would be > worth the negative feedback from the change in perception that this logging > would trigger. > > I also think that the argument that it might be helpful to refer back to > what was said on IRC a year ago is a weak argument; if there was something > that was said a year ago that is of value, technical or otherwise, then it > should have been republished in a more permanent structure via the wiki, a > post to a mailing list, or otherwise. > > Setting aside the rest of the proposal, is there really value in logging > irc channel floods of racist and homophobic remarks for posterity? Do we > want to spend effort on curating those logs to prevent that? > > The logs themselves are (as I have been assured by many people) worthless > as an accountability measure because it is very easy to impersonate someone > else, and are untrustworthy. As a transparency measure they provide some > insight into discussions, but at the end of the day many of the high value > discussions will implicitly lose value because other aspects of the > discussion are ephemeral (pastebins, etherpads, video calls which rely on > backchannel, etc, etc ,etc) > > In order to derive value from this beyond a long term backscroll it > requires implementing a de facto surveillance apparatus which is at odds > with the values of many people in the community. > > > > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Johnny Stenback <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I full expect that the vast majority of our irc channels are already >> logged, some obviously, others maybe a bit less so. Making the fact >> that everything that's said on our irc channels is public official and >> known seems like a good thing to me. >> >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Benjamin Kerensa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > And FWIW many people are already logging through their bouncers and >> clients >> > already... I would bet most channels if not all are logged by >> individuals >> > already. So all I am asking is if Mozilla should log and make logs >> > available publicly for the benefit of the community. >> > >> > I have scrollback on my bouncer but once I see it... It is gone and it >> > would be nice to be able to point back to a discussion. >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:14 PM, L. David Baron <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> >> On Friday 2015-01-23 12:43 -0800, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: >> >> > What does everyone think about logging irc channels >> >> >> >> I support logging public channels. I think it will make >> >> participation easier and help communication, both across time zones >> >> and for those new to the project (who can learn what was said on IRC >> >> a year before). >> >> >> >> -David >> >> >> >> -- >> >> 𝄞 L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/ 𝄂 >> >> 𝄢 Mozilla https://www.mozilla.org/ 𝄂 >> >> Before I built a wall I'd ask to know >> >> What I was walling in or walling out, >> >> And to whom I was like to give offense. >> >> - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914) >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Benjamin Kerensa >> > http://benjaminkerensa.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > governance mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >> >> >> >> -- >> jst >> _______________________________________________ >> governance mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >> > > _______________________________________________ governance mailing list [email protected] https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
