On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Benjamin Kerensa <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:52 PM, Ravi Pina <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 04:34:16PM -0800, Benjamin Kerensa wrote: >> > On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Yvan Boily <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > Can I ask if you think mailing lists should be private? >> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance >> >> I don't feel this is a fair comparison and whether a mailing list is >> private or not is irrelevant. The communications are implicitly >> logged because of the nature how the messages are sent. For IRC logging >> is not implied. While there is nothing to prevent someone from >> independently logging conversations, the notion that all activity is >> logged and archived for public consumption potentially creates a hostile >> environment. >> > > Wait are you trying to tell me that its implied that when you send a > packet using a email protocol its implied it will be logged but when you > send a message via the irc protocol there is an expectancy that it is not? > > Mozilla uses inspircd which by default logs all user messages in and out > and on channels: <log method="file" type="* -USERINPUT -USEROUTPUT > -m_spanningtree" level="default" target="ircd.log"> > > As for it creating a hostile environment as others already pointed out a > good amount of channels are already logged and publicly archived so were > talking about just logging and archiving the remaining channels. No hostile > environment has so far existed in fact its been positive. > If the needs are being met by the community, does it make sense to burden Mozilla with a service for which it bears liability under US regulation? > > >> >> Consider the implications if someone were to record a meeting professional >> or not. The mere presence of the recording will perhaps cause those less >> willing to speak to not speak at all. Perhaps they are self conscious or >> just fundamentally prefer to be able to choose when their words are made >> public in this way. >> > > Non-profits and public bodies in many countries are required by law to > record minutes of meetings many have full video and audio recording and yet > many people still attend them. Recording them and making it available > publicly has demonstrably increased access to these meetings. > Yes. But these are a different media. Extending your argument, we should have streaming media that allows anyone to listen to any conversation because it would increase access. > > >> >> This happens with the press all the time. When things are off the record >> people are more willing to talk and be open and honest, but as soon as >> there is a recorder and things go on the record statements are calculated >> and planned. >> > > Are you saying people are more deliberate in how they communicate when > others might see what they say? Imagine that.... So people might be more > deliberate in following our participation guidelines too. > No, others are more deliberate about their communications if they know their comments will be recorded for posterity. Do you think I wanted this casual comment <http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/6667> recorded for posterity? Is there value (beyond the fact that someone found it funny) that it should have been recorded and included as part of Mozilla's public record? What about (again) the frequent abuse from folks who disagree with policy decisions (or misunderstand circumstances) and come onto the irc network to spout hate or insult people. Does it make sense to archive that? Without a ministry of truth style group that edits and curates the logs, it is hard to control *what* gets logged and republished. What about the potential PR or legal liability if Mozilla publishes links to pirated or illegal content inadvertently? > > >> >> As Yvan pointed out as well there is a notion of PII to consider. In >> addition to the usernames and messages themselves, logging will track >> the IDENT username and hostname and timestamps of when a user signs on >> and off the channel. >> > > > http://logs.glob.uno/?c=mozilla%23developers&s=23%20Jan%202015&e=23%20Jan%202015Of > any irc logging I have seen over many years quit and join messages have > never been part of any publicly archived logs: > I am less concerned about that than I am about people who share information in the actual content of their messages. > >> I feel like if you strongly want logs for a particular channel there are >> plenty of methods to do this on your own and that having them globally >> captures and then published is not serving the Community at large so much >> as a subset of the Community >> > > Again most of the channels are already logged and archived mostly I think > a few people out of our thousands of contributors would be against this > proposal. > > http://logs.glob.uno/ > Again, the community (even if glob is staff) has met this need. I don't think it makes sense for Mozilla to formalize this as a policy. _______________________________________________ governance mailing list [email protected] https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/governance
